Vettel domination, good thing for Alonso and Hamilton legacy

[Gvozdenovic]

After one more race watched with friends, and after one more one hour post race rant ranking of today drivers based on their "actual driver abilities in stock cars", where of course Vettel is being put in Di Resta class, i'm begining to think that Vettel dominance is actually not a bad thing for these two.

Of course people generally don't like winners. They love those who are "humble" and "cool", or translated, those who tactically downplay their superiority over common man, those who are silent about the fact that you are regular nobody with loans to pay, boss to serve, man with no defences against any major threat in life. So, we have to create nemesis for guys like Vettel, to satisfy our need for a nice little movie where bad guys beat good guys not because they are more talented, capable or more brave but because they have unique evil magic artifact, like one ring to rule them all or Red Bull car.

And then, we so readily put in brain basement things like Timo Glock stoping in last lap to give Hamilton championship victory over Felipe Massa, Vettel win in Toro Roso, Vettel being recognized as a supertalent from his very first race, Vettel being only one managing to follow those lunatic Brawn cars in first half of 2009, fact that ace driver would pass Petrov even in freaking Monaco, fact that ace driver would pass Hulkenberg today, fact that ace driver doesn't choke away two titles, fact that Latin duo of Italian team and Spaniard driver give supermix for lying, moaning, blaming others for theirs problems and lack of sportsmanship.

We put all that aside and proclaim these two Mika Hakkinens into almost Schumacher, Prost category. And that's how they will be remembered, especially in the future. In 20 years i expect my son reading on some forum like this how Alonso and Hamilton were supertalented drivers with lack of money and engine strength, or some other loser crap. Fernando and Lewis, say thanks to Sebastian.

[Eifelland]

To be honest, I see what you're getting at, and broadly speaking, I suppose I agree with your points.

Alonso is a fantastic driver - he's gone to Ferrari, where, although he'll get the treatment he feels he deserves, he's not anywhere near as competitive as he would be if he'd bitten the bullet and gone to say, RBR. Hamilton stayed with McLaren through the rough times, at the cost of his own success - they are both victims of poor machinery. That can't be denied by anyone.

You're right though, Vettel had that great year with Toro Rosso. But let's not forget Alonso in the last couple of year. Massa is miles of the pace 9 races out of 10, but Alonso does stuff with it that perhaps not even Vettel could.

This Vettel hate is quite stupid though - people weren't hating on Schumacher when he WAS cheating his way to titles (94, 95, forever, if conspiracy theorists are to be believed about things like traction control etc.). Vettel is dominating the sport like his compatriot before him, but whereas people bent over backward to call Schumacher 'the greatest ever' - which in fairness, he is/was, he had the benefit of constant testing to help him hone his skills behind the wheel. Vettel does not.

But to suggest that the other two are subpar is a little unfair.

[Gvozdenovic]

Yes, but with every passing year of Vettel domination, those Ferrari and Mclaren cars retrospectively become worse. 20 years from now, people will talk that Alonso and Hamilton drove midfield cars.

[kevinbotz]

Oh for Christ's sake...

I'm not sure why I'm even dignifying this petulant tirade with a response. Before you denigrate any more drivers apart from your sacrosanct Vettel, please read up on the fallacy of incomplete evidence, because that's exactly what you're committing over and over again each time you launch into another wave of opprobrium against two of the most talented drivers of our generation.

Stop aggrandizing your preferred driver at the expense of others. It's beyond vindictive and entirely unnecessary.

[Gvozdenovic]

English is not my mother language, i could try to work out meaning of these odd words through my knowledge of Latin, but i won't bother with that. My feeling is that you are showing lack of respect for other forumites with this style of writing. I guess you are enjoying this made up eccentricity, but i don't, and i won't engage in conversation with you in future.

[pablo_h]

This is beautiful. Walking thesaurus meets ESL speaker, all super powers lost.

Though seriously I agree on the prognosis Kev.
I'm sick of people making up stuff to prove their case. "What if" and "In the future" or "A few years ago" blah blah blah.

[kevinbotz]

English is not my mother language, i could try to work out meaning of these odd words through my knowledge of Latin, but i won't bother with that. My feeling is that you are showing lack of respect for other forumites with this style of writing. I guess you are enjoying this made up eccentricity, but i don't, and i won't engage in conversation with you in future.

Respect is earned. Disrespecting drivers, especially employing such a flimsy premise to do so, isn't exactly praiseworthy behavior.

I really don't care for what you perceive my motives to be, and to be candid, I'm not comfortable standing on this pedestal issuing proscriptions anyways. The only reason why I even felt compelled to attack your assessments was simply due to the flagrant dogmatism and fallacies that pervaded it.

For what its worth, I had no intention of maligning your English proficiency or your person, if that's what you thought. This is simply how I communicate myself, via electronic media or actual conversation. If you felt offended because of that misunderstanding, then I'll apologize for it, but I will not apologize for my attacks on your arguments. I maintain that the arguments you've espoused regarding Alonso and Hamilton's supposed relative inferiority to Vettel, selectively excluding otherwise conspicuous pieces of evidence that argue to the contrary, are fatally incomplete and bordering on the spiteful.

[kevinbotz]

Accidental double post.

[CoopsII]

This entire thread could perhaps have been started in the Rantbox/Ponderbox threads.

[SgtPepper]

Kevinbotz I really wouldn't bother replying, as I decided not to after reading;

So, we have to create nemesis for guys like Vettel, to satisfy our need for a nice little movie where bad guys beat good guys not because they are more talented, capable or more brave but because they have unique evil magic artifact, like one ring to rule them all or Red Bull car.

Vettel being only one managing to follow those lunatic Brawn cars in first half of 2009,

[Gvozdenovic]

I'm sick of people making up stuff to prove their case. "What if" and "In the future" or "A few years ago" blah blah blah.

Where did i made up staff to prove my case? I made up fact that Alonso couldn't pass Petrov in championship moment? I made up fact that Vettel won in midfield car? I made up fact that Hamilton needed Glock to stop his car in last lap to win in championship battle against B class driver Massa?Or any other thing mentioned? Parts of my post that includes constructions like "in the future" come in conclusion, after i've already built my case on facts.

If you reread my first post again, cold headed, you will realize that i never tried to say that Alonso or Hamilton are not championship drivers. I called them Mika Hakkinens, which is quite a compliment, i guess. I was just saying that they are not best drivers on grid today, Vettel is.

And Vettel is not my favourite driver. I don't have preferred driver, as Senna said : "I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." That's why think it is a travesty not to inhibit, not to tame, basic emotional, psychological weaknesses in following sport like F1 which was always watched by a bit more educated and spirited bunch. I try to fight "liverpoolisation" of F1 fandom.

[Londoner]

But Glock didn't stop his car for Hamilton to win the championship. He was on dry tyres in worsening conditions, and it was only gonna be a matter of time before he was passed.

[pablo_h]

To make this thread more interesting, I think Hulkenburg is the next Webber. Agree/disagree?
Both have no money, but definite talent, both used to put lower class cars further up the qual grid than the car deserved, both race hard to try keep position.
By that comment full respect to Vettel, beating MW a few years ago when Webber was younger and had full support of the team. Both their one lap pace was special and Vettel is really good to beat him and proved better in the end due to youth an support and I'm not denying talent.
After Webber leaves I'm going to be a full time Hulkenburg fan and I hope he gets a drive.
Vettel is the one lap pace guy that can deliver in qual but also lap after lap, Hamilton is the overtaker and racer, Alonso is the guy that can drive with problems and keep a cool head.
But I want Hulkenburg in a top car so forget them.

[Salamander]

I made up fact that Alonso couldn't pass Petrov in championship moment?

And as I've said elsewhere, we all know Abu Dhabi is a shite track for overtaking. Petrov on his day is also quite competent. It is the fault of the Ferrari strategists for giving him a car not setup for overtaking, then putting Alonso in that position.

I made up fact that Vettel won in midfield car?

It might not have been a title-winning car, but at that stage of the season the Toro Rosso was the 4th best car, and Vettel did have the advantage of a wetter setup than pretty much anyone else.

I made up fact that Hamilton needed Glock to stop his car in last lap to win in championship battle against B class driver Massa?

B-Class driver!? WHAT!? I mean, yeah, since his accident Massa has left much to be desired, but in 2008 he was one of the best drivers in the world. He beat Raikkonen fairly handily over the course of that year.

Parts of my post that includes constructions like "in the future" come in conclusion, after i've already built my case on facts.

That doesn't change the fact that those are speculations and you have no way of knowing whether or not they are true.

[Gvozdenovic]

I'm not denying that Abu Dhabi is tough for overtaking, and that Petrov was competent on that day, but top champion overcomes obstacles like that in to be or not to be moment.

Massa is a B class driver in context of champions and conteders for championships. That's what i meant. And Hamilton needed once in 100 years touch of luck to win a battle against him.

And of course, i can't guarantee that my thoughts will come up as true in future, im not a prophet, what kind of contra argument is that.

@ kevinbotz

I've read your reply carefully. I accept that i was wrong with my stance towards your style of conversation. I reffered in original post to some general negative characteristic of Latin people. I'm Dinaric, we easily get confrontational.

[Salamander]

Massa is a B class driver in context of champions and conteders for championships. That's what i meant. And Hamilton needed once in 100 years touch of luck to win a battle against him.

Interesting. Would you say Michele Alboreto is in the same category as Massa?

[good_Ralf]

Hamilton thinks Vettel winning consistently could be boring fans away from F1 even if races such as yesterday were overall exciting.

[Alextrax52]

Hamilton thinks Vettel winning consistently could be boring fans away from F1 even if races such as yesterday were overall exciting.

Is he having a laugh or what? I've had to sit through the Schumacher era and Vettel's dominance and haven't cared a bit because I have the passion, Rachel1990 even said that everyone has given up on the year but me. I'm sure if Lewis was dominating then he wouldn't care if he was boring the pants off the fans and the British press would be saying how he's the greatest driver ever and so on. Lewis and Mercedes need to get a move on as does the rest of the grid.

BTW I lolled it about Lewis's comments about him and Alonso, They rated about 8 Di Resta's

[Gvozdenovic]

Would you say Michele Alboreto is in the same category as Massa?

That's really an interesting comparison, looking stats only, i would rank Alboreto B-, if Massa is B, but i guess that with more reliability, Alboreto's margin to Prost in 85 would be smaller, and his downfall years would be awarded with more points, so yeah, Massa is kind of a modern Alboreto. Of course, i haven't watched any of Michele's driving.

[mario]

Vettel being only one managing to follow those lunatic Brawn cars in first half of 2009,

I would disagree with that - after the German GP, which was the halfway point in the 2009 season, Button lead on 68 points, Vettel was next on 47 points and Webber was third on 45.5 points. Webber was, at that point in time, effectively equal to Vettel in the WDC and had as much of a theoretical chance of winning as his team mate did - Vettel's lead over Webber was still only just 2.5 points as late as the Italian GP (54 points to 51.5), so it was only in the final four races where Vettel pulled out a significant lead over Webber.

I'm not denying that Abu Dhabi is tough for overtaking, and that Petrov was competent on that day, but top champion overcomes obstacles like that in to be or not to be moment.

I would disagree with that sentiment - sometimes, there are certain circumstances that can prevent any driver, no matter how great his talent, from being able to overcome an obstacle.

A classic example would be Graham Hill in 1964 - whilst he could have won the title in the final race, he struggled to pass Bandini and eventually collided with him whilst trying to force his way past him, resulting in damage to his car that slowed him down and gave Surtees the chance to take the title instead.
There are a great number of races where we celebrate the defensive skills of one driver who utilised certain advantages with his car to beat his opponents - it is a bit like Gilles utilising the straight line speed advantage of his car in the 1981 Spanish GP where, although his car was hopeless in the corners, the twisty, narrow layout meant that his opponents could not pass him in the corners and couldn't keep up on the straights. Similarly, we saw how Senna was powerless against Boutsen in the 1990 Hungarian GP due to the latter driver's tactical driving and the layout of the circuit, even though he was seconds a lap faster than Boutsen in the closing stages.

Massa is a B class driver in context of champions and conteders for championships. That's what i meant. And Hamilton needed once in 100 years touch of luck to win a battle against him.

Interesting. Would you say Michele Alboreto is in the same category as Massa?

Sheer fortune has played its part for a number of other drivers in title deciding races - do we dismiss Fittipaldi's title with McLaren in 1974 as merely lucky because, in the final race, Scheckter broke down and Regazzoni's shock absorbers failed, therefore giving Fittipaldi a relatively untroubled run to the finish? Was Piquet lucky that Reutemann had transmission problems in the 1981 season finale and therefore dropped out of the points? Or lucky that, by his own admission, he was so physically exhausted that he could not have held off the rapidly closing Laffite and Watson if the race was one lap longer?

[Eifelland]

Hamilton thinks Vettel winning consistently could be boring fans away from F1 even if races such as yesterday were overall exciting.

Is he having a laugh or what? I've had to sit through the Schumacher era and Vettel's dominance and haven't cared a bit because I have the passion, Rachel1990 even said that everyone has given up on the year but me. I'm sure if Lewis was dominating then he wouldn't care if he was boring the pants off the fans and the British press would be saying how he's the greatest driver ever and so on. Lewis and Mercedes need to get a move on as does the rest of the grid.

BTW I lolled it about Lewis's comments about him and Alonso, They rated about 8 Di Resta's

Just because Vettel wins from lights to flag doesn´t mean that there aren´t plenty of interesting battles going on elsewhere in the field. We´re the F1 Rejects Forum, that´s the part we´re meant to thrive on!

You´re right though, I bet if Lewis was 100-odd points clear of Vettel, we wouldn´t have headlines like "I ruined F1 - Lewis Hamilton"...

[Gvozdenovic]

after the German GP, which was the halfway point in the 2009 season, Button lead on 68 points, Vettel was next on 47 points and Webber was third on 45.5 points.

Ok, i can't fight with stats. I partially retract my statements about 2009 season.

A classic example would be Graham Hill in 1964 - whilst he could have won the title in the final race, he struggled to pass Bandini and eventually collided with him whilst trying to force his way past him

Well, that's actually why i think Alonso is not top level champion. He didn't collided trying to pass Petrov. Now i believe that Graham is a worthy champion, i didn't know this story, thank you for it. And Senna - Boutsen, Boutsen kept Senna at bay in Hungary, but what do you think would happen in Abu Dhabi? Senna passing Boutsen 90 pct of chances, other 10 going to both Senna and Boutsen ending up in wall, 0 pct of chances for Senna passing finish line behind Boutsen, waving to him in after race, man, that was pathetic.

Sheer fortune has played its part for a number of other drivers in title deciding races - do we dismiss Fittipaldi's title with McLaren in 1974 as merely lucky because, in the final race, Scheckter broke down and Regazzoni's shock absorbers failed, therefore giving Fittipaldi a relatively untroubled run to the finish? Was Piquet lucky that Reutemann had transmission problems in the 1981 season finale and therefore dropped out of the points? Or lucky that, by his own admission, he was so physically exhausted that he could not have held off the rapidly closing Laffite and Watson if the race was one lap longer?

No, of course not, nor do i dismiss Hamilton's title. He deserves one. He doesn't deserve being labeled as joint best natural driver of today, that's my point whole time.

[Salamander]

And Senna - Boutsen, Boutsen kept Senna at bay in Hungary, but what do you think would happen in Abu Dhabi? Senna passing Boutsen 90 pct of chances, other 10 going to both Senna and Boutsen ending up in wall, 0 pct of chances for Senna passing finish line behind Boutsen, waving to him in after race, man, that was pathetic.

That's... totally missing his point. Boutsen drove tactically well and used the layout of the track and the strengths of his car to keep Senna, a better driver in a much faster car, at bay. Exactly like Petrov did at Abu Dhabi. You can say what you like about Alonso, but the man has seriously contended for 5 world titles. There are very few drivers that can match or beat that number.

No, of course not, nor do i dismiss Hamilton's title. He deserves one. He doesn't deserve being labeled as joint best natural driver of today, that's my point whole time.

I don't think anyone here has contested that. Certainly, though, his sheer raw speed over lap is a match for Vettel, or at least the closest thing to it in today's field. Over a race distance though, Hamilton is much more prone to errors.

[Gvozdenovic]

That's... totally missing his point.

Actually, you're missing mine. Hungary was 10th race of season. Had Senna and Boutsen pitted against each other in last race of season, in an everything on the line moment, no track layout or amount of tactical driving would save Boutsen from being passed or at least being walled in process. That's how the real champions are, ruthless and best when it matters most. Alonso proved in 2007, 2010 and in 2012 that he is not that.

[Alextrax52]

Hamilton thinks Vettel winning consistently could be boring fans away from F1 even if races such as yesterday were overall exciting.

Is he having a laugh or what? I've had to sit through the Schumacher era and Vettel's dominance and haven't cared a bit because I have the passion, Rachel1990 even said that everyone has given up on the year but me. I'm sure if Lewis was dominating then he wouldn't care if he was boring the pants off the fans and the British press would be saying how he's the greatest driver ever and so on. Lewis and Mercedes need to get a move on as does the rest of the grid.

BTW I lolled it about Lewis's comments about him and Alonso, They rated about 8 Di Resta's

Just because Vettel wins from lights to flag doesn´t mean that there aren´t plenty of interesting battles going on elsewhere in the field. We´re the F1 Rejects Forum, that´s the part we´re meant to thrive on!

You´re right though, I bet if Lewis was 100-odd points clear of Vettel, we wouldn´t have headlines like "I ruined F1 - Lewis Hamilton"...

I've been one of the leaders about the races being exciting even if Vettel is leading. I thought a lot of the 2011 races were great despite him winning 11 races overall

[Salamander]

That's... totally missing his point.

Actually, you're missing mine. Hungary was 10th race of season. Had Senna and Boutsen pitted against each other in last race of season, in an everything on the line moment, no track layout or amount of tactical driving would save Boutsen from being passed or at least being walled in process.

Supposition. Impossible to be certain.

That's how the real champions are, ruthless and best when it matters most. Alonso proved in 2007, 2010 and in 2012 that he is not that.

And Alain Prost lost more world titles than he won. He could've won the title in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1988, and 1990 in addition to the ones he already won. Is he not a real champion?

[Meatwad]

And Alain Prost lost more world titles than he won. He could've won the title in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1988, and 1990 in addition to the ones he already won. Is he not a real champion?

Schumacher took the title fight to the last race in 1997, 1998 and 2006. I'm certain that he would have won 1999 as well without the injury. Really a scary thought for one driver to have 11 championships, eight of them in consecutive seasons!

If Vettel wins more championships and Alonso and Hamilton do not, I'm sure Vettel will be far better remembered by everyone. Unfortunately, the casual fans will probably only remember the champions and some that came close, not other brilliant drivers like Kubica or Hülkenberg (if he doesn't get a seat in a top team).

[Gvozdenovic]

Supposition. Impossible to be certain.

You are again using this nonsense argument. Impossible to be certain? You don't say, i thought that we can ask Bernie to lend us his real time F1 simulator where we would program Abu Dhabi Senna Boutsen battle, where Senna needs to overtake Boutsen to take the title.

And Alain Prost lost more world titles than he won. He could've won the title in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1988, and 1990 in addition to the ones he already won. Is he not a real champion?

In 1982 he was 4th, in 83 he retired in 3 of last 4 races, in 1984, 1988 and 1990 he fought legitimately against other top class drivers and lost those battles fair and square. He is a real champion. He didn't choked away none of those championship because of basic lack of class and bravery like Alonso.

[Salamander]

Supposition. Impossible to be certain.

You are again using this nonsense argument. Impossible to be certain? You don't say, i thought that we can ask Bernie to lend us his real time F1 simulator where we would program Abu Dhabi Senna Boutsen battle, where Senna needs to overtake Boutsen to take the title.

Nonsense argument!? You mean it's nonsense to point out that what you're saying is entirely based on conjecture and is literally impossible to prove!? And as I've stated before, Abu Dhabi is a difficult track to overtake on. Much like the Hungaroring. Let's also not forget that Prost came into that race a mere four points behind Senna - he had every reason to push and gain as many points as possible, especially after Prost had retired earlier in the race.

And Alain Prost lost more world titles than he won. He could've won the title in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1988, and 1990 in addition to the ones he already won. Is he not a real champion?

In 1982 he was 4th, in 83 he retired in 3 of last 4 races, in 1984, 1988 and 1990 he fought legitimately against other top class drivers and lost those battles fair and square. He is a real champion. He didn't choked away none of those championship because of basic lack of class and bravery like Alonso.[/quote]

Prost could have won in 1983 had he not crashed at Zandvoort. In 1982 his chances were slimmer, but he did them no end of harm by crashing out of the lead at Monaco. Alonso arguably could've won the 2007 title if he had not crashed at Fuji, while he lost 2010 due to a poor strategy call on Ferrari's part which left him mired in traffic with a car that was ill-equipped for overtaking.

However, if you are intent on your belief that Alonso lacks "class" and "bravery" and isn't a "real champion", then I do not see the point in continuing this, as anyone who wins 32 grands prix and 2 world championships has to have a certain amount of class and bravery. I won't attempt to quantify whatever a "real champion" is though, as it stinks of the no true Scotsman fallacy to me.

[Gvozdenovic]

Nonsense argument!? You mean it's nonsense to point out that what you're saying is entirely based on conjecture and is literally impossible to prove!?

Of course it is absolute nonsense. This is bloody forum of regular guys who follow F1, not a courtroom and me being a lawyer apprentice ( altough in a bit shitty legal system lolo ) can tell you that you would be shocked with amount of conjectures, presumptions and what if's in those serious palaces of justice. That's how life works, i guess.

Look mate, i see you are Alonso fan, that's cool, i don't dislike Fernando, i dislike abstraction of him being overhyped, i will forever respect Alonso for defeating Schumacher. You thinks Alonso is top level driver in comparision to great champions, i think he's not, but nevertheless great driver. I too don't see any possible meeting point from here on beetween us, so i agree on droping it.

[watka]

This thread reminds me of this

Anyway, as Gvozdenovic has called off the discussion now so does this thread need to be open any more?

[Gvozdenovic]

Haha, that's some serious boxing there i think i'll watch the whole fight.