Overrated and Underrated Sportspeople

[CoopsII]

Montoya was probably worse with his post F1 move to NASCAR.

It still seems like such a waste that we lost him to that series. Although Ive slagged him off in another thread perhaps the approach that Martin Whitmarsh takes would've actually managed to keep him at McLaren, I dont think he liked Ron Dennis telling him off. I still believe he was capable of winning a WDC eventually. And what a boozy, boisterous, Big Mac chomping champion he wouldve been....

[good_Ralf]

It still seems like such a waste that we lost him to that series. Although Ive slagged him off in another thread perhaps the approach that Martin Whitmarsh takes would've actually managed to keep him at McLaren, I don't think he liked Ron Dennis telling him off. I still believe he was capable of winning a WDC eventually. And what a boozy, boisterous, Big Mac chomping champion he wouldve been....

Whenever I think of my favourite F1 drivers I always say I put Montoya in the Top 10...

[CoopsII]

Whenever I think of my favourite F1 drivers I always say I put Montoya in the Top 10...

He had plenty of personality thats for sure. And girth.

[ibsey]

I would agree that is a fairly fair assessment of Peterson - even Peterson himself admitted that his tendency to drive around, rather than try to work through, problems was a problem when it came to developing a car.

Seems appropriate to add Nigel Roebuck comments on the matter here;

…because in all truth he was a hopeless test driver, and admitted as much. “Ronnie was amazing in that respect,” Colin Chapman once told me. “You could change a car really quite fundamentally – and he’d still turn in the same sort of times! So you’d ask him how it felt different from before, and he’d say, ‘Ummm, slides a bit more…’ Where? At the front, the back, both ends? And he’d say he wasn’t really sure! Made me tear my hair out. Then, of course, he’d go and put the thing on pole, so you couldn’t really get too mad with him…”

Chapman always reckoned that Peterson was at his best when partnered with a supreme test driver, and it was lucky for him that, in two spells with Lotus, his team-mates were Emerson Fittipaldi and Mario Andretti. “He’d mess around in practice, while Emerson worked on his set-up, then copy his settings – and nick pole position from him! Used to madden Emerson, that, and you couldn’t blame him…”

Ronnie’s talent was such that he could drive around any problem his car might have, and he had the confidence to commit to a flat-out corner in the certainty that he could sort it all out.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ask_n ... or-anyone/

Also just got a book called ‘Ronnie Peterson; A Photographic Portrait’ (Photos by LAT) and probably about half of the photos in that book is of Ronnie going sideways in a F1 car. Somehow he even manages to get the 6 wheeler Tyrell sideways in one picture. What a legend!

[Onxy Wrecked]

Whenever I think of my favourite F1 drivers I always say I put Montoya in the Top 10...

He had plenty of personality thats for sure. And girth.

Rivals former IndyCar driver Tony Stewart who also went to NASCAR in girth. NASCAR is where open wheel drivers who like to eat a lot and race often go.

[takagi_for_the_win]

Whenever I think of my favourite F1 drivers I always say I put Montoya in the Top 10...

He had plenty of personality thats for sure. And girth.

Rivals former IndyCar driver Tony Stewart who also went to NASCAR in girth. NASCAR is where open wheel drivers who like to eat a lot and race often go.

What about the late Jose Froilan Gonzalez?

"In my day the racing drivers were fat and the tyres were skinny"

[Bleu]

I go with Coulthard in overrated section. He spent most of your career binning than winning. Also, in your last years he was a truly mobile chicane. In 2008 season he crashed with six times, if I remember well:

1-With Massa in Albert Park
2-With Button in Bahrain
3-With Barrichello in Hockenhein
4-With Nakajima in Monza
5-With Nakajima in Fuji
6-With Nakajima again, in Interlagos

Add 7th (3rd in order): with Vettel in Silverstone.

[CarlosFerreira]

I find Raikkonen hugely overrated. Sure, he was fast while at McLaren, but never so fast that he could consistently beat Schumacher, reliability issues or not. He then went on to almost manage to lose Schumacher's team that 2007 Championship - you'd almost think that McLaren committing public suicide was part of his severance package. And in his post-WRC incarnation only seems to be able to win races when Pirelli equips the grid with tyres made of jelly. Sure, there is skill in managing a good blend of speed and tyre-saving, but I honestly cannot see why he should come in the same sentence as Vettel or Alonso. Most importantly, I will never forgive him for cheating Force India and Fisichella of a victory in Spa by going outside the circuit at La Source. Boo.

As for underrated drivers, let me put in a word for a certain Mr Pedro Matos Chaves. He tried his best with no success in the Coloni, sure, but he won in pretty much anything else you care to mention - F3000, GTs, WRCs (saw his beat former World Group N champion, Rui Madeira, in equivalent machinery), off-road... the man was made for racing cars, and race cars he did. And all the while being an earnest, affable and polite gentleman. Quite a man.

[Faustus]

As for underrated drivers, let me put in a word for a certain Mr Pedro Matos Chaves. He tried his best with no success in the Coloni, sure, but he won in pretty much anything else you care to mention - F3000, GTs, WRCs (saw his beat former World Group N champion, Rui Madeira, in equivalent machinery), off-road... the man was made for racing cars, and race cars he did. And all the while being an earnest, affable and polite gentleman. Quite a man.

Couldn't agree more. Pedro Matos Chaves also went straight from Formula Ford 1600 to British Formula 3000 and he won the championship first time out. He was very very close to securing a drive with March for 1992, which unfortunately he lost out to Paul Belmondo. I've spoken to his manager (Duarte Cancella de Abreu) about it at great length. The Portuguese Autosport (motorsport newspaper, unrelated to the other Autosport). visited the March facility in Bicester but idiotically went right after Christmas and before the New Year. Many engineering companies in the UK shut down between Christmas and New Year and so did March. When the reporter and the photographer turned up unnanounced there were barely any people there and not much sign of activity. The reporter wrote in his story that he didn't see much activity and that surely it was a sign that March was in trouble and probably wouldn't survive, let alone compete in the 1992 F1 championship. The main sponsors (Mateus and Galp) read the story and were scared away, especially Galp, which was part of the Petrogal petrochemical group in Portugal and majority state-owned, so they couldn't approve this sort of expense without the tacit support of the media. Eventually the newspaper went back to Bicester at the end of January and saw the team in full swing and reported this correctly, but by then March had already signed a deal with Belmondo.
He did pretty well in the States in Indy Lights, won one race but could easily have won 10, but lost out in a lot of accidents in the first 2 years. If anyone remembers the 1993 and 1994 Indy Lights seasons, they were borderline Wacky Races. He had offers to test IndyCars for 1996 but he didn't have enough money for a full season.
I met him in Le Mans in 2002 when I had worked on and off with Ray Mallock Ltd and they entered him in a Saleen. I then worked with him in most of the 2003 FIA GT Championship with Graham Nash Motorsport. Really nice man, very polite and generous to his team, very good technical feedback and very very quick.

[good_Ralf]

I think despite his talent, Fisichella was overrated. For example, when he finished second in Canada in 1998, Murray Walker said something like: "and here's another man who many think is going to be a world champion in the future!" when he crossed the line.

[ibsey]

I think despite his talent, Fisichella was overrated. For example, when he finished second in Canada in 1998, Murray Walker said something like: "and here's another man who many think is going to be a world champion in the future!" when he crossed the line.

IIRC during ITV's end of season review of 1998 Martin Brundle felt Fisico should have won Canada 1998. Even taking into account whatever gearbox problem Fisco may have had during that race. Brundle simply felt Fisco didn't push hard enough throughout the mid part of that race.

Also I can certainly remember numerous races throughout 2005 / 2006 where Fisco's race engineer Alan Permane would constantly have to keep pushing Fisco to go faster over the team radio.Personally I think Fisco did have a reasonable amount of talent, but not the determination or desire to extract the best out of himself for every single lap during a GP.

[Alextrax52]

I think despite his talent, Fisichella was overrated. For example, when he finished second in Canada in 1998, Murray Walker said something like: "and here's another man who many think is going to be a world champion in the future!" when he crossed the line.

IIRC during ITV's end of season review of 1998 Martin Brundle felt Fisico should have won Canada 1998. Even taking into account whatever gearbox problem Fisco may have had during that race. Brundle simply felt Fisco didn't push hard enough throughout the mid part of that race.

Also I can certainly remember numerous races throughout 2005 / 2006 where Fisco's race engineer Alan Permane would constantly have to keep pushing Fisco to go faster over the team radio.Personally I think Fisco did have a reasonable amount of talent, but not the determination or desire to extract the best out of himself for every single lap during a GP.

Britain 2006 is a good example as well because Permane said to get payback for Suzuka 2005 when they were chasing Raikkonen and they failed. A driver like Alonso would have done it immediately not sat behind him for the end of the race.

There's no question that Fisichella got rinsed by Alonso in both Wins (14-2) and Podiums (29-8) and pretty much every catergory you can think of but he also suffered the lion's share of bad luck such as Canada 2005 where his hydraulics gave up when leading. But i don't think he made the most of having the best car on the grid especially in 2006 where he was beaten by Massa in his First year at Ferrari and he very nearly got beat by Raikkonen in the inferior Mclaren who with a bit more luck and Reliability would have come 3rd in the title. Also only 5 podiums (1 win 4 3rd's) compared to Alonso on 14, Schumacher on 12, Massa on 7 and Raikkonen who actually scored more Podiums with 6 isn't good for someone who was considered a world champion prospect

[CoopsII]

Personally I think Fisco did have a reasonable amount of talent, but not the determination or desire to extract the best out of himself for every single lap during a GP.

I agree. I think the longer his career went on the more his determination faded. Also, while I understand the lure of driving for Ferrari he gave up on the real possibility of some decent results with Force India with the momentum they'd had.

[good_Ralf]

For most of his career, I think Jarno Trulli was underrated and a sole Grand Prix win hints at this.

[takagi_for_the_win]

I think despite his talent, Fisichella was overrated. For example, when he finished second in Canada in 1998, Murray Walker said something like: "and here's another man who many think is going to be a world champion in the future!" when he crossed the line.

The problem was that Fisico was lumbered with uncompetitive cars during the early noughties, when he was at his peak. If he'd been in a decent car, who knows what he could've done..

[ibsey]

I think despite his talent, Fisichella was overrated. For example, when he finished second in Canada in 1998, Murray Walker said something like: "and here's another man who many think is going to be a world champion in the future!" when he crossed the line.

The problem was that Fisico was lumbered with uncompetitive cars during the early noughties, when he was at his peak. If he'd been in a decent car, who knows what he could've done..

Indeed. Fisico probably lost a bit of heart, as a result of wasting his best years in those poorer cars. Losing his seat at the up & coming Renualt team at the end of 2001, must have been a massive blow to Fisico.

[Gerudo Dragon]

Overrated - Matt Neal

Underrated - Dan Eaves

[Salamander]

Overrated: Jason Plato
Underrated: Lea Wood

[AdrianSutil]

Overrated: Jason Plato
Underrated: Lea Wood

Agreed. Lea Wood is a very talented driver. It's his Vectra thats letting him down. He should have 50 points to his name by now.

[Salamander]

Overrated: Jason Plato
Underrated: Lea Wood

Agreed. Lea Wood is a very talented driver. It's his Vectra thats letting him down. He should have 50 points to his name by now.

I was absolutely gutted for Lea when his car gave up on him while he was on course for a podium at Snetterton last year. He deserves better than that crappy 3 year old Vectra he's had to deal with for 2 years now.

[Alextrax52]

I read across the board quite a lot that many people say Danica Patrick is Overrated. Can someone explain to me why?

[Salamander]

I read across the board quite a lot that many people say Danica Patrick is Overrated. Can someone explain to me why?

... because the media overblows everything she does and gives her a very disproportionate amount of coverage?

[Shizuka]

For most of his career, I think Jarno Trulli was underrated and a sole Grand Prix win hints at this.

His career could have gone different if he finished 2nd on the A1-Ring in '97.

[pasta_maldonado]

I read across the board quite a lot that many people say Danica Patrick is Overrated. Can someone explain to me why?

I'd say she's a competent midfield driver capable of some good results, but people make her out to be a new Zanardi or Johnson.

And on another note, her off-track behaviour stinks.

[Hound55]

I read across the board quite a lot that many people say Danica Patrick is Overrated. Can someone explain to me why?

I don't know where you heard that. She certainly isn't great, we all knew that. I think its more about her being in better equipment than she deserves at this stage, which causes people to exclaim she is overrated. Fans agree she isn't that good. Tony Stewart, maybe not so much.

[Ataxia]

For most of his career, I think Jarno Trulli was underrated and a sole Grand Prix win hints at this.

His career could have gone different if he finished 2nd on the A1-Ring in '97.

Jarno was a horrible victim of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. He joined Prost, a team that couldn't put a quick car together. He then moved to Jordan, who produced some good cars but were often unreliable, and then to Renault before they really hit the big time before joining the Toyota moneypit.

He deserved so much more...

[good_Ralf]

For most of his career, I think Jarno Trulli was underrated and a sole Grand Prix win hints at this.

His career could have gone different if he finished 2nd on the A1-Ring in '97.

Jarno was a horrible victim of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. He joined Prost, a team that couldn't put a quick car together. He then moved to Jordan, who produced some good cars but were often unreliable, and then to Renault before they really hit the big time before joining the Toyota moneypit.

He deserved so much more...

He also arrived at Prost and Jordan just after the teams hit their prime before sliding back.

[good_Ralf]

If Trulli was lucky in 2000...

Australia 3rd
Brazil 4th
San Marino 7th
Britain 6th
Spain 7th
Europe 5th
Monaco 1st
Canada 6th
France 6th
Austria 4th
Germany 3rd
Hungary 7th
Belgium 3rd
Italy 3rd
USA 3rd
Japan 13th
Malaysia 12th

Total: 41 points and a solid 5th in the championship

[go_Rubens]

If Trulli was lucky in 2000...

Australia 3rd
Brazil 4th
San Marino 7th
Britain 6th
Spain 7th
Europe 5th
Monaco 1st
Canada 6th
France 6th
Austria 4th
Germany 3rd
Hungary 7th
Belgium 3rd
Italy 3rd
USA 3rd
Japan 13th
Malaysia 12th

Total: 41 points and a solid 5th in the championship

Yeah. He'd be a 2 time Monaco winner at least!

[takagi_for_the_win]

If Trulli was lucky...

Story of his career really...

I reckon Olivier Panis was hugely under rated, and Ralf Schumacher massively over rated

[good_Ralf]

Pedro de la Rosa, another of my favorites, was underrated IMO.
He wasn't amazingly fast, but he deserved more from his career.

[SgtPepper]

I find Raikkonen hugely overrated. Sure, he was fast while at McLaren, but never so fast that he could consistently beat Schumacher, reliability issues or not. He then went on to almost manage to lose Schumacher's team that 2007 Championship - you'd almost think that McLaren committing public suicide was part of his severance package. And in his post-WRC incarnation only seems to be able to win races when Pirelli equips the grid with tyres made of jelly. Sure, there is skill in managing a good blend of speed and tyre-saving, but I honestly cannot see why he should come in the same sentence as Vettel or Alonso. Most importantly, I will never forgive him for cheating Force India and Fisichella of a victory in Spa by going outside the circuit at La Source. Boo.

I actually feel Kimi is a vastly better driver than Vettel, and would actually consider Kimi the underrated one. He appears to be the opposite of Vettel in the sense that the machinery beneath him has generally belied his talents, and that Vettel's has massaged his. I'm yet to see few, if any examples of Vettel pushing a car beyond its natural limit to succeed, and only dominates when driving far-and-away the best car on the grid. Yes of course he's very adept at dominating when in said car, but in general when driving a car somewhere around as strong as his competitors he appears to generally be left running further back.


Open question I've been pondering, is Button over, or underrated?

[DOSBoot]

Open question I've been pondering, is Button over, or underrated?

Hmmm.......probably during his early career, he was overrated, but I think his later years aside from 2009, he was an underated bloke. Especially in 2011, when he was giving Hamilton a run for his money. Or maybe someone who is both underrated, and overrated at the same time.

[go_Rubens]

I find Raikkonen hugely overrated. Sure, he was fast while at McLaren, but never so fast that he could consistently beat Schumacher, reliability issues or not. He then went on to almost manage to lose Schumacher's team that 2007 Championship - you'd almost think that McLaren committing public suicide was part of his severance package. And in his post-WRC incarnation only seems to be able to win races when Pirelli equips the grid with tyres made of jelly. Sure, there is skill in managing a good blend of speed and tyre-saving, but I honestly cannot see why he should come in the same sentence as Vettel or Alonso. Most importantly, I will never forgive him for cheating Force India and Fisichella of a victory in Spa by going outside the circuit at La Source. Boo.

I actually feel Kimi is a vastly better driver than Vettel, and would actually consider Kimi the underrated one. He appears to be the opposite of Vettel in the sense that the machinery beneath him has generally belied his talents, and that Vettel's has massaged his. I'm yet to see few, if any examples of Vettel pushing a car beyond its natural limit to succeed, and only dominates when driving far-and-away the best car on the grid. Yes of course he's very adept at dominating when in said car, but in general when driving a car somewhere around as strong as his competitors he appears to generally be left running further back.


Open question I've been pondering, is Button over, or underrated?

Räikkönen is the underrated one. He should logically have 3 titles by now.

Button is overrated. 'Nuff said.

[Salamander]

Button is overrated. 'Nuff said.

No. Explain why.

[takagi_for_the_win]

Pedro de la Rosa, another of my favorites, was underrated IMO.
He wasn't amazingly fast, but he deserved more from his career.

No, for me the jury is still out on PdlR. I mean, yes, he did well at HRT and from what I've heard he is a genuinely likable chap, but he never really cut the mustard for me. For example, at Arrows, he didn't exactly destroy Takagi and Verstappen generally had the beating of him. At Jaguar in 2001, he out performed Irvine in my view, but in 2002 an under motivated Irv blew him away completely. He didn't disgrace himself during his super sub days at McLaren but never set the world alight either. Finally, at Sauber, again he never really could match his team mate, but then again his team mate was Kobayashi.

Button is overrated. 'Nuff said.

Hmmm, certainly in the immediate wake of his title triumph, he could well have been over rated by some, same goes for the immediate wake of 2004. However, I feel that Button, on the whole, has driven brilliantly under the radar, so to speak; 2002 and 2003 being prime examples of this, when he was able to take a midfield car well out of its comfort zone (see Malaysia 2002, USA 2003). Also, his performances in the latter part of 2006 were impressive, and largely went unheralded, despite the fact he scored more points than anyone else in the title run-in. Finally, many people expected him to be blown away by Hamilton at McLaren, but he managed to keep him very much on an even keel for 3 years.

[go_Rubens]

Button is overrated. 'Nuff said.

No. Explain why.

He had a stellar 2000 season, but didn't live up to his hype in '01. '02 was a season where Renault was basically under the radar. When he moved to BAR, he lived up to some of his hype. More reject years in 2007 and 2008 saw him fall back. 2009 was the year he won his title, but he never won a single race after Turkey, despite the others able to catch up, while a past his prime Rubens won 2 events. He hasn't done much at McLaren since he joined.

[takagi_for_the_win]

More reject years in 2007 and 2008 saw him fall back.

I have an inkling that was more down to car than driver..

[pasta_maldonado]

Button is overrated. 'Nuff said.

No. Explain why.

He had a stellar 2000 season, but didn't live up to his hype in '01. '02 was a season where Renault was basically under the radar. When he moved to BAR, he lived up to some of his hype. More reject years in 2007 and 2008 saw him fall back. 2009 was the year he won his title, but he never won a single race after Turkey, despite the others able to catch up, while a past his prime Rubens won 2 events. He hasn't done much at McLaren since he joined.

He won on his McLaren debut, and added another win to that in his debut season, in which everyone predicted he'd be completely decimated by Hamilton. It was Hamilton's team and Button walked in and held his own, and Button's form is one of the things I attribute to Hamilton's breakdown in 2011. Talking of 2011, Button finished best of the rest to a dominant Vettel, including a fantastic win in Canada.

Midway through 2012, he had his own pace problems, but a win at Spa proved his pace. This year he hasn't been able to do much with a car thats plain horseshitel

[Salamander]

He won on his McLaren debut

Not on debut, but he did win 2 of his first 4 races with the team.