ROTR: 2013 Spanish GP

QuickYoda41 · Post by **QuickYoda41** » 13 May 2013, 09:00

Mercedes

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 13 May 2013, 09:45

Well, since this season, I haven't been watching F1 as closely as I used to, mainly because of too many inexperienced drivers (remember that Nelsinho quote?) on the grid who have replaced drivers I liked. Instead, I have turned my interest towards IndyCars (though not the Indy Collegiate Athletics Reporting System, which is a website founded in 1996 for the sake of keeping the domain name from the motor racing series).

Hence, I have only seen the end of the Barcelona race, and there was nothing too reject-worthy on display then. However, I heard about the pitlane clash of Hülkenberg and Ricciardo, and the troubles for some teams and possible safety risks involving the racing action enhancing tyre compounds from Pirelli. But the latter are rather a part of Pirelli's campaign for the Reject Of the Year award. So that leaves the ROTR award to be delivered somewhere near Sauber's garage.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 13 May 2013, 10:29

I will go for Van der Garde wheel. It robbed him of easily his best race yet.

Second will go for Sauber's pit stop.

Finally, I won't say Mercedes as I was expecting their fall, but still, if they keep fading on race days they will be within a shout from McLaren, who still managed a double points finish.

Post by **mario** » 13 May 2013, 13:33

DanielPT wrote:I will go for Van der Garde wheel. It robbed him of easily his best race yet.

Second will go for Sauber's pit stop.

Finally, I won't say Mercedes as I was expecting their fall, but still, if they keep fading on race days they will be within a shout from McLaren, who still managed a double points finish.

Despite Hamilton falling out of the points, Rosberg's 6th place means that, for now, they have actually pulled slightly further ahead of McLaren in the WCC (from 41 points after the Bahrain GP to 43 points). It may still be a very long way to go, but you would expect that, as the season progresses, McLaren might start catching Mercedes soon enough given that this tendency for high tyre wear seems too deeply embedded into the nature of the car for them to overcome it.

wsrgo · Post by **wsrgo** » 13 May 2013, 16:55

Mercedes.

At this rate, I feel we are going to be treated to the world's longest openwheel car train at Monaco. Until they box, that is. :lol:

Honourable mentions to:

Sauber's pitstop for Hulkenberg.

Webber with another bugger of a start. At least, his four-stop was intentional, aggressive, and well-executed.

Bottas: horrible afternoon.

Button: required McLaren to step off their moral high horse of being he team sans team orders :!:

Chilton: somehow managed to finish nearly 20 seconds behind Bianchi despite the latter having to pit on lap 1.

NOT TO FORGET: Psst...does anyone know why there was a marshal on the start line waving a yellow? :?:

THE SUNDAY TORTOISE AWARD goes to the one and only true-bred racer Lewis Hamilton!!!! :lol:

DalekSam · Post by **DalekSam** » 13 May 2013, 17:38

madmark1974 wrote:For me it has to be Pirelli this time round. I know people have been complaining about the tyres pretty much all year, but this race seems to have been the worst example yet.

Well, I say race, there wasn't really any like-for-like racing out there. Qualifying has now become totally meaningless, and it was almost embarrasing to see the Mercedes floundering due to the tyre
compounds appearing to be made of liquorice. How can a car go from being 0.3 seconds faster than anything else in quali, to being over 1 second a lap slower in the race? It appears that the fastest
car is no longer actually the fastest car, well it might be for about 1.5 minutes on the day before, but as soon as the lights go out ...

At least Pirelli have finally acknowledged the issue so we might see some proper racing from Silverstone onwards. The situation is neutering the more 'racy' drivers such as Hamilton and Webber,
I want to see drivers pushing the limits of their cars, not Driving Miss Daisy.

Agreed completely - I'd much rather sacrifice the artificial 'racing' for drivers doing blinders for the whole race, not for a lap and then having the tires die right after and having them fall like a truck, much like the Mercedes did.

Honorable mention to Hulkenberg for being a complete tool and crashing into Vergne. The amount of pitlane drama these days is abysmal.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 13 May 2013, 18:04

DalekSam wrote:Honorable mention to Hulkenberg for being a complete tool and crashing into Vergne. The amount of pitlane drama these days is abysmal.

Isn't that Force India's fault?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 13 May 2013, 18:13

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
DalekSam wrote:Honorable mention to Hulkenberg for being a complete tool and crashing into Vergne. The amount of pitlane drama these days is abysmal.

Isn't that Force India's fault?

I believe Hulkenberg drives for Sauber these days...

But yeah, it was Sauber's fault for letting him go too early.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 13 May 2013, 19:05

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
DalekSam wrote:Honorable mention to Hulkenberg for being a complete tool and crashing into Vergne. The amount of pitlane drama these days is abysmal.

Isn't that Force India's fault?

I believe Hulkenberg drives for Sauber these days...

But yeah, it was Sauber's fault for letting him go too early.

Dammit. I still think of him as a Force India driver. I never think of Perez as being at Sauber anymore, and Hamilton at Mercedes I always remember, but for whatever reason, midfield sideways moves take a while for me to get used to.

LellaLombardi · Post by **LellaLombardi** » 13 May 2013, 21:26

East Londoner wrote:
LellaLombardi wrote:Guiterrez. I like nothing better than seeing a driver who has taken some serious shite off people to do well. Hope he can build on it.

Wrong thread.

Massive

Post by **Londoner** » 13 May 2013, 21:43

New nomination - Dietrich Mateschitz. Just go home mate.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 13 May 2013, 21:59

My picks for ROTR:

3. Adrian Sutil's luck. Once again, he makes Chris Amon look like the luckiest man on earth. Now that is a bathplugged statement.

2. Caterham's wheelnuts. Ruined van der Garde's weekend when he was finally doing well.

1. Mercedes' tyre management. What the bathplugging hell was that? They need to sort the problem with tyres out now. If you have the qualifying pace to get on the front row, you need to stay there, not finish 6th and 12th! Total crap all around.

Post by **kevinbotz** » 13 May 2013, 22:28

wsrgo wrote:Mercedes.

At this rate, I feel we are going to be treated to the world's longest openwheel car train at Monaco. Until they box, that is.

Honourable mentions to:

Sauber's pitstop for Hulkenberg.

Webber with another bugger of a start. At least, his four-stop was intentional, aggressive, and well-executed.

Bottas: horrible afternoon.

Button: required McLaren to step off their moral high horse of being he team sans team orders

Chilton: somehow managed to finish nearly 20 seconds behind Bianchi despite the latter having to pit on lap 1.

NOT TO FORGET: Psst...does anyone know why there was a marshal on the start line waving a yellow?

THE SUNDAY TORTOISE AWARD goes to the one and only true-bred racer Lewis Hamilton!!!!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107410

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 14 May 2013, 02:21

East Londoner wrote:New nomination - Dietrich Mateschitz. Just go home mate.

Damn him. In my line of sight, he's trying to be a crybaby wannabe and wants the tyres to be less severe so his team can do the double. AGAIN. That is shite. The safety fears I can take, but just use the tyres they give you for God's sake. To know that the championship might not be a Red Bull cakewalk is a good thing for once, but Mateschitz is trying to make his team win everything and then claim F1 is actually racing again. What a hypocrite. This may need to be a new sig because of how rejectful Dietrich is being. :roll:

What a debacle. A laughable failure. Need I say more? I think not.

wsrgo · Post by **wsrgo** » 14 May 2013, 04:04

go_Rubens wrote:
East Londoner wrote:New nomination - Dietrich Mateschitz. Just go home mate.

Damn him. In my line of sight, he's trying to be a crybaby wannabe and wants the tyres to be less severe so his team can do the double. AGAIN. That is shite. The safety fears I can take, but just use the tyres they give you for God's sake. To know that the championship might not be a Red Bull cakewalk is a good thing for once, but Mateschitz is trying to make his team win everything and then claim F1 is actually racing again. What a hypocrite. This may need to be a new sig because of how rejectful Dietrich is being. What a debacle. A laughable failure. Need I say more? I think not.

searching for a like button

AND NOW

PRESENTING

RED BULL DRINK'S NEW INGREDIENT

Are you ready? It is...it is....

SOUR GRAPES

pher38 · Post by **pher38** » 14 May 2013, 12:19

DalekSam wrote:
madmark1974 wrote:For me it has to be Pirelli this time round. I know people have been complaining about the tyres pretty much all year, but this race seems to have been the worst example yet.

Well, I say race, there wasn't really any like-for-like racing out there. Qualifying has now become totally meaningless, and it was almost embarrasing to see the Mercedes floundering due to the tyre
compounds appearing to be made of liquorice. How can a car go from being 0.3 seconds faster than anything else in quali, to being over 1 second a lap slower in the race? It appears that the fastest
car is no longer actually the fastest car, well it might be for about 1.5 minutes on the day before, but as soon as the lights go out ...

At least Pirelli have finally acknowledged the issue so we might see some proper racing from Silverstone onwards. The situation is neutering the more 'racy' drivers such as Hamilton and Webber,
I want to see drivers pushing the limits of their cars, not Driving Miss Daisy.

Agreed completely - I'd much rather sacrifice the artificial 'racing' for drivers doing blinders for the whole race, not for a lap and then having the tires die right after and having them fall like a truck, much like the Mercedes did.

Be careful what you wish for! I can't believe there has been an outcry over the tyres after this race. The Spanish circuit has always had a very abrasive surface and most other circuits this year have required 2 or 3 stops, the ideal target. We must not go back to the dark days of tyres which could last some 50 laps, which could happen soon if Pirelli are pressured into producing more durable tyres . Even in 2010, the championship battle was close, but some of the races were especially dull. Has everyone forgotten that even last year, by the end of the season most teams had 'understood' the tyres and were achieving one stop races, leading to some thoroughly dull races such as Korea and India, but apparently the drivers were 'pushing' so everything was OK. This was from what started out as a very promising season with seven different winners in the first seven races because the tyres degraded quickly. If we change the compounds now we will be back to one stop boring races faster than you know it!

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 14 May 2013, 14:45

Red Bull, for obvious reasons.

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 14 May 2013, 14:59

A very interesting piece from David Coulthard here, about the tyres and their effect on the racing, which I pretty much agree with totally :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22512693

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 14 May 2013, 22:25

wsrgo wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:
East Londoner wrote:New nomination - Dietrich Mateschitz. Just go home mate.

Damn him. In my line of sight, he's trying to be a crybaby wannabe and wants the tyres to be less severe so his team can do the double. AGAIN. That is shite. The safety fears I can take, but just use the tyres they give you for God's sake. To know that the championship might not be a Red Bull cakewalk is a good thing for once, but Mateschitz is trying to make his team win everything and then claim F1 is actually racing again. What a hypocrite. This may need to be a new sig because of how rejectful Dietrich is being. What a debacle. A laughable failure. Need I say more? I think not.

searching for a like button

AND NOW

PRESENTING

RED BULL DRINK'S NEW INGREDIENT

Are you ready? It is...it is....

SOUR GRAPES

Yummy! I need some Sour Grapes in my Red Bull... it might make my Toro Rosso.

wsrgo · Post by **wsrgo** » 15 May 2013, 04:30

madmark1974 wrote:A very interesting piece from David Coulthard here, about the tyres and their effect on the racing, which I pretty much agree with totally :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22512693

A very well-balanced, well-though out piece written by DC. It's surprising that more than fifty percent of the fans want tyre changes..more than fifty percent of the teams want tyre changes.. and yet only a handful of pundits want them. Will Buxton, David Coulthard and Craog Scarborough all agree on the same point: if RBR and Mercedes have big problems, whereas Lotus and Ferrari don't, why are the tyres being changed? It's not just about the delaminations, it's about the number of stops too. What's wrong with four stops? Why didn't people have a problem when they tested the Pirellis at Interlagos last year? Why didn't people have a problem, when in pre-season testing, RoGro did a four-stop 66 lap simulated run at BCN?

A large part of the audience are Mercedes fans, who are having to go through Sunday nightmares as they see their drivers dropping back, powerless to defend. Whose fault is it, really? I'd say Mercedes, because they haven't done enough to build a car that would use the tyres probably. Is it just Pirelli's fault, that Hamilton dropped down from 2nd to 12th? If Hamilton had not myopically locked up his PZeros big time at Turn 1 on Lap 1, would he have struggled so much initially?

Another thing that I saw: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/7EE7D5392A94A532C1257A850051A2C9/$FILE/2013%20TECHNICAL%20REGULATIONS.pdf

On page 45, Art. 12.6.3: "Tyre specifications will be determined by the FIA no later than 1 September of the previous
season. Once determined in this way, the specification of the tyres will not be changed during
the Championship season without the agreement of all competing teams."

I'm not sure if Lotus and Ferrari have given their consent. If so, they can/should go the FIA to complain against Pirelli's move.

AxelP800 · Post by **AxelP800** » 15 May 2013, 07:37

Pirelli's 2012 spec tyres are enough to make race interesting. No need to make it softer (or it'll become a pillow).

ROTR: Lewis Hamilton. Drop 10 positions

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 15 May 2013, 09:52

wsrgo wrote:
A large part of the audience are Hamilton fans, who are having to go through Sunday nightmares as they see their driver dropping back, powerless to defend. Whose fault is it, really? I'd say Mercedes, because they haven't done enough to build a car that would use the tyres probably. Is it just Pirelli's fault, that Hamilton dropped down from 2nd to 12th? If Hamilton had not myopically locked up his PZeros big time at Turn 1 on Lap 1, would he have struggled so much initially?

Fixed as no one really cares much about Rosberg. Other than that I completely agree with you. This whole "cars are managing the tyres and not going flat out, so we want so see cars going always as fast as possible" outcry is mostly the view many Hamilton fans (and the Whole British Press, by the way), who many are not die-hard F1 fans but occasional ones, at the sight of their hero plummeting down the order like that. I deduce this because, after all, the tyres didn't changed that much from last season (Pirelli already said that, if I am correct). What changed was Hamilton not being able to fight for wins. The saddest part is that all the hardcore fans already knew this because the team formerly known as Brawn already had tyre issues since 2009 and was never been able to solve them turning the whole problem into an eternal one. The most infuriating part is that Red Bull probably know this and are ridding that wave, which is looking to benefit them the most.

This is the only explanation I can find for public demands that the rules need to be changed mid season this year, while not last year, seeing that much have not changed! (one just need to look at some fellow members statistics from last year)

I can only imagine the moral and ethical speech that would come from many of these folks if the changes were being made to benefit Ferrari instead.

Having said all this, I would not have any problem with this outcry if it weren't for the Whole British Press assuming that they have the moral high ground (when the rules benefit johnny foreigner) only to leave it behind when it is convenient. It is highly hypocritical. I am sorry if I upset any British forumites, but this view is shared by many outside your country (at least I know many). Also, I reckon I might have entered in a bit of conspiracy theory a few lines back.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 May 2013, 10:00

DanielPT wrote:Having said all this, I would not have any problem with this outcry if it weren't for the Whole British Press assuming that they have the moral high ground (when the rules benefit johnny foreigner) only to leave it behind when it is convenient. It is highly hypocritical. I am sorry if I upset any British forumites, but this view is shared by many outside your country (at least I know many). Also, I reckon I might have entered in a bit of conspiracy theory a few lines back.

Johnny Foreigner here, how are you doing?
I mostly agree with you (I have a permanent itch to scratch with the British press), but I thought I'd highlight an important factor: it's Mercedes and Red Bull who've been using ze German* press to put pressure in Pirelli, partly using the safety card. A part of me hopes Pirelli simply wheels out last year's tyres and gives everyone the bird.

*fans of 'Allo 'Allo, stand up!

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 May 2013, 10:06

CarlosFerreira wrote:
DanielPT wrote:Having said all this, I would not have any problem with this outcry if it weren't for the Whole British Press assuming that they have the moral high ground (when the rules benefit johnny foreigner) only to leave it behind when it is convenient. It is highly hypocritical. I am sorry if I upset any British forumites, but this view is shared by many outside your country (at least I know many). Also, I reckon I might have entered in a bit of conspiracy theory a few lines back.

Johnny Foreigner here, how are you doing?
I mostly agree with you (I have a permanent itch to scratch with the British press), but I thought I'd highlight an important factor: it's Mercedes and Red Bull who've been using ze German* press to put pressure in Pirelli, partly using the safety card. A part of me hopes Pirelli simply wheels out last year's tyres and gives everyone the bird.

*fans of 'Allo 'Allo, stand up!

I dont understand why being British has anything to do with it, neither British driver will benefit enough to win the championship no matter what Pirelli do.

I missed out Di Resta on purpose.

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 15 May 2013, 10:08

I understand the point that DanielPT is making above, but from what I remember of the race coverage (I watched on the BBC), Coulthard mentioned that people were on partial throttle round turn 3 pretty
much every time an onboard was shown (definitely when riding with Kimi and I think Alonso too), and commented that the drivers were not able to push, which he has since followed up on in the link I posted
above. They didn't really discuss Hamilton during the race as he was pretty much out of contention after 2 laps. From what I have heard Brundle was saying pretty much the same on SKY.

Now, it could be that as they are both ex-racers they are looking on the racing as being 'not as good as when we were doing it', but how many million people hear and respect their opinions? My initial thought
for ROTR was the tyres before I'd read any of the hyperbole afterwards and I'm still sticking with it. I didn't enjoy the race/racing (not a first for Barcelona), and I feel that the tyres were the main factor in that.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 May 2013, 10:40

CoopsII wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
DanielPT wrote:Having said all this, I would not have any problem with this outcry if it weren't for the Whole British Press assuming that they have the moral high ground (when the rules benefit johnny foreigner) only to leave it behind when it is convenient. It is highly hypocritical. I am sorry if I upset any British forumites, but this view is shared by many outside your country (at least I know many). Also, I reckon I might have entered in a bit of conspiracy theory a few lines back.

Johnny Foreigner here, how are you doing?
I mostly agree with you (I have a permanent itch to scratch with the British press), but I thought I'd highlight an important factor: it's Mercedes and Red Bull who've been using ze German* press to put pressure in Pirelli, partly using the safety card. A part of me hopes Pirelli simply wheels out last year's tyres and gives everyone the bird.

*fans of 'Allo 'Allo, stand up!

I dont understand why being British has anything to do with it, neither British driver will benefit enough to win the championship no matter what Pirelli do.

My point is just about a section of the British press, not about being British. They have this a nagging habit of going on and on about anything that can be perceived as pointing the finger of blame to a well defined entity (Pirelli) in order to create fake outrage and sell a few more thousands editions of printed toilet paper. From the perception that there is a problem to the social construction that the problem requires action to solve.

Rest assured, if Pirelli creates tyres that completely change the dynamics of the races and Vettel wins the Championship by a country mile, the same parts of the press will have a second bite of the cherry, and accuse Pirelli of producing tyres that are too durable, or too close to Red Bull's needs.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 15 May 2013, 10:53

CarlosFerriera wrote:Rest assured, if Pirelli creates tyres that completely change the dynamics of the races and Vettel wins the Championship by a country mile, the same parts of the press will have a second bite of the cherry, and accuse Pirelli of producing tyres that are too durable, or too close to Red Bull's needs.

If this happens, F1 in my opinion would fall into disrepute because Red Bull would win the championship AGAIN and the others will bash Pirelli for creating tyres which were too close to Red Bull's needs. If this happens, this should make Pirelli the Reject of the Year because of all this tyre controversy and the debacle of Formula 1 racing tyres that the FIA ask Pirelli to make. The best solution to this whole tyre debacle is to leave the tyres as they are and let Red Bull (which is the organization with the most complaints) and the other drivers cope with the tyres. F1 is about the best teams and drivers, and the best teams and drivers (should) be the best to cope with a situation. You don't ask for tyres to be changed to help you (Red Bull)!

Post by **kevinbotz** » 15 May 2013, 11:04

Still, four stops in a normal, dry race, even on a high-degradation circuit like Catalunya, is a bit too much.

Nevertheless, I see no credible reason for the invective directed at Pirelli. For one, their development process is severely hampered by the simple fact that they don't have access to a modern F1 car. Their only test car is a 2010-spec Renault that has significantly less downforce than a 2012-spec car, let alone a 2013-spec car. I think Autosport were estimating the Renault to be 3-4 seconds slower than the 2013 cars. Once that factor is taken into consideration, it's a small wonder that 2013 cars are chewing up their tires when those very tires are probably calibrated to work best with a car that's been obsolescent for 3 years.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 15 May 2013, 11:12

I still thought that Pirelli had a chance to get out of this whole debacle, by themselves, on a high by starting to bring in the harder choices but from the moment they chose to change the tyres mid season like this, that this is probably only going downhill for them, IMHO. Perhaps I am wrong, but knee-jerk changes like those, specially if viewed favouring someone, never did any good for one's reputation.

Post by **mario** » 15 May 2013, 12:05

DanielPT wrote:
wsrgo wrote:
A large part of the audience are Hamilton fans, who are having to go through Sunday nightmares as they see their driver dropping back, powerless to defend. Whose fault is it, really? I'd say Mercedes, because they haven't done enough to build a car that would use the tyres probably. Is it just Pirelli's fault, that Hamilton dropped down from 2nd to 12th? If Hamilton had not myopically locked up his PZeros big time at Turn 1 on Lap 1, would he have struggled so much initially?

Fixed as no one really cares much about Rosberg.

Perhaps not within the British press, but the German press is another matter - unsurprisingly, they care a lot more about what Rosberg says than Hamilton, and whilst Rosberg has moderated his comments to the British press, he has been much more scathing of Pirelli when speaking to the German press. That is also fairly important when you consider that it is often through the German press that Red Bull, and to a lesser extent Mercedes, have been putting their points across, with those comments then being picked up in the British press a little later on.

AxelP800 wrote:Pirelli's 2012 spec tyres are enough to make race interesting. No need to make it softer (or it'll become a pillow).

ROTR: Lewis Hamilton. Drop 10 positions

The indication from Pirelli is that they are moving to something closer to the 2012 style tyres, which might mean a change in profile and a fairly sizeable change in the structural stiffness of the sidewalls.
There was a theory posited by one blogger that, whilst Red Bull might benefit, the largest beneficiary might actually be McLaren - one posited reason for their poor performance is that they did not expect the tyre sidewalls to be as flexible as they were and they are unable to manage the effects of tyre squirt on the performance of their diffuser (basically, low pressure turbulent air being pushed laterally out from the rear tyres into the outer edges of the diffuser). McLaren are thought to have criticised Pirelli over their windtunnel model tyres, as have Sauber (another team who might benefit from tyre changes), so moving to a tyre where the sidewalls are less likely to deform under load might suit them much more.

DanielPT wrote:I still thought that Pirelli had a chance to get out of this whole debacle, by themselves, on a high by starting to bring in the harder choices but from the moment they chose to change the tyres mid season like this, that this is probably only going downhill for them, IMHO. Perhaps I am wrong, but knee-jerk changes like those, specially if viewed favouring someone, never did any good for one's reputation.

As many have said, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't - if they don't change the tyres, the negative publicity would only continue to grow and, with Bernie no longer defending them in public (he defended them after the Bahrain GP but, since that meeting he had with Mateschitz in Spain, he has become more critical of Pirelli now), their reputation would continue taking a hit in the longer term. If Red Bull do now run away with the championship, then they will be seen as having influenced the title and having favoured Red Bull and the press is likely to remain critical, so it is hard to see how Pirelli can really win either way.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 15 May 2013, 12:29

mario wrote:
DanielPT wrote:I still thought that Pirelli had a chance to get out of this whole debacle, by themselves, on a high by starting to bring in the harder choices but from the moment they chose to change the tyres mid season like this, that this is probably only going downhill for them, IMHO. Perhaps I am wrong, but knee-jerk changes like those, specially if viewed favouring someone, never did any good for one's reputation.

As many have said, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't - if they don't change the tyres, the negative publicity would only continue to grow and, with Bernie no longer defending them in public (he defended them after the Bahrain GP but, since that meeting he had with Mateschitz in Spain, he has become more critical of Pirelli now), their reputation would continue taking a hit in the longer term. If Red Bull do now run away with the championship, then they will be seen as having influenced the title and having favoured Red Bull and the press is likely to remain critical, so it is hard to see how Pirelli can really win either way.

It's a very good reason why I think Pirelli will leave F1 after this year - I honestly don't think they'll be able to take this dumb criticism any longer. Also, this lose/lose situation will make the executives furious.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 15 May 2013, 14:10

mario wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
wsrgo wrote:
A large part of the audience are Hamilton fans, who are having to go through Sunday nightmares as they see their driver dropping back, powerless to defend. Whose fault is it, really? I'd say Mercedes, because they haven't done enough to build a car that would use the tyres probably. Is it just Pirelli's fault, that Hamilton dropped down from 2nd to 12th? If Hamilton had not myopically locked up his PZeros big time at Turn 1 on Lap 1, would he have struggled so much initially?

Fixed as no one really cares much about Rosberg.

Perhaps not within the British press, but the German press is another matter - unsurprisingly, they care a lot more about what Rosberg says than Hamilton, and whilst Rosberg has moderated his comments to the British press, he has been much more scathing of Pirelli when speaking to the German press. That is also fairly important when you consider that it is often through the German press that Red Bull, and to a lesser extent Mercedes, have been putting their points across, with those comments then being picked up in the British press a little later on.

Well, sure Red Bull and Mercedes might put their criticisms with the German press, but the fact that there are many many more people able to understand English rather than German, it kind of diminishes their lobbying power because of their limited reach and in spite of their economic power. Anglo-Saxon press on the other hand...

JeremyMcClean wrote:It's a very good reason why I think Pirelli will leave F1 after this year - I honestly don't think they'll be able to take this dumb criticism any longer. Also, this lose/lose situation will make the executives furious.

I am with you on that one. And if they do leave, who will come next? It is hard to see past the idea that whoever comes after will end up pretty much in the same situation. Bridgestone got much stick for building tyres that last forever and therefore reducing strategy to zilch. Pirelli is the other way around. There is no reason to think that striking the balance looks to be a very hard task. It is an ungrateful task, it seems. Perhaps a lesser constructor would want to do it on the basis of any publicity is good publicity.

wsrgo · Post by **wsrgo** » 15 May 2013, 14:42

DanielPT wrote:
mario wrote:
Perhaps not within the British press, but the German press is another matter - unsurprisingly, they care a lot more about what Rosberg says than Hamilton, and whilst Rosberg has moderated his comments to the British press, he has been much more scathing of Pirelli when speaking to the German press. That is also fairly important when you consider that it is often through the German press that Red Bull, and to a lesser extent Mercedes, have been putting their points across, with those comments then being picked up in the British press a little later on.

Well, sure Red Bull and Mercedes might put their criticisms with the German press, but the fact that there are many many more people able to understand English rather than German, it kind of diminishes their lobbying power because of their limited reach and in spite of their economic power. Anglo-Saxon press on the other hand...

JeremyMcClean wrote:It's a very good reason why I think Pirelli will leave F1 after this year - I honestly don't think they'll be able to take this dumb criticism any longer. Also, this lose/lose situation will make the executives furious.

I am with you on that one. And if they do leave, who will come next? It is hard to see past the idea that whoever comes after will end up pretty much in the same situation. Bridgestone got much stick for building tyres that last forever and therefore reducing strategy to zilch. Pirelli is the other way around. There is no reason to think that striking the balance looks to be a very hard task. It is an ungrateful task, it seems. Perhaps a lesser constructor would want to do it on the basis of any publicity is good publicity.

I heard Hankook were interested..http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/448399/Hankook_emerges_as_possible_F1_tyre_supplier/

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 15 May 2013, 16:55

madmark1974 wrote:I understand the point that DanielPT is making above, but from what I remember of the race coverage (I watched on the BBC), Coulthard mentioned that people were on partial throttle round turn 3 pretty
much every time an onboard was shown (definitely when riding with Kimi and I think Alonso too), and commented that the drivers were not able to push, which he has since followed up on in the link I posted
above. They didn't really discuss Hamilton during the race as he was pretty much out of contention after 2 laps. From what I have heard Brundle was saying pretty much the same on SKY.

Now, it could be that as they are both ex-racers they are looking on the racing as being 'not as good as when we were doing it', but how many million people hear and respect their opinions? My initial thought
for ROTR was the tyres before I'd read any of the hyperbole afterwards and I'm still sticking with it. I didn't enjoy the race/racing (not a first for Barcelona), and I feel that the tyres were the main factor in that.

It is only natural that the press defends their athletes. The only thing that pisses me off is that moral high ground they love to inhabit only to replace it with bad excuses when it is one of the same nationality. That and the easy trigger of accusing everyone else of cheating as it is the only possible way to explain their victory. One thing I remember well was the attack they launched at the Europa league finalist from 2 years ago that opposed two Portuguese sides with an apparent lack of players with the same nationality as if it is not a syndrome that also attacks many Premiership sides and other top European clubs...

Anyway, enough of that. Back to tyres limiting the cars. I can accept that the tyre might, and I repeat, might be placing drivers in danger, but tyre failings have not arise like in the past and it not seems to be the may reason Pirelli are changing. They are changing because the tyres limit the cars. What about the grooved tyres which are probably the worst idea in the past 20 years when it comes to F1? Drivers stopped to drive eau-rouge flat-out back then and I don't remember such outrage...

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 15 May 2013, 20:30

DanielPT wrote:
madmark1974 wrote:I understand the point that DanielPT is making above, but from what I remember of the race coverage (I watched on the BBC), Coulthard mentioned that people were on partial throttle round turn 3 pretty
much every time an onboard was shown (definitely when riding with Kimi and I think Alonso too), and commented that the drivers were not able to push, which he has since followed up on in the link I posted
above. They didn't really discuss Hamilton during the race as he was pretty much out of contention after 2 laps. From what I have heard Brundle was saying pretty much the same on SKY.

Now, it could be that as they are both ex-racers they are looking on the racing as being 'not as good as when we were doing it', but how many million people hear and respect their opinions? My initial thought
for ROTR was the tyres before I'd read any of the hyperbole afterwards and I'm still sticking with it. I didn't enjoy the race/racing (not a first for Barcelona), and I feel that the tyres were the main factor in that.

It is only natural that the press defends their athletes. The only thing that pisses me off is that moral high ground they love to inhabit only to replace it with bad excuses when it is one of the same nationality. That and the easy trigger of accusing everyone else of cheating as it is the only possible way to explain their victory. One thing I remember well was the attack they launched at the Europa league finalist from 2 years ago that opposed two Portuguese sides with an apparent lack of players with the same nationality as if it is not a syndrome that also attacks many Premiership sides and other top European clubs...

Anyway, enough of that. Back to tyres limiting the cars. I can accept that the tyre might, and I repeat, might be placing drivers in danger, but tyre failings have not arise like in the past and it not seems to be the may reason Pirelli are changing. They are changing because the tyres limit the cars. What about the grooved tyres which are probably the worst idea in the past 20 years when it comes to F1? Drivers stopped to drive eau-rouge flat-out back then and I don't remember such outrage...

That is a very good point actually because from what of the race I watched (all laps bar 20-46 due to siesta whilst watching the race on I player), the majority of the last part of the race was just tyres, tyres and more tyres. I also hated hamiltons comments on the radio, hence why I like drivers like Kimi and Fernando because they just get on with it!

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 May 2013, 22:03

DanielPT wrote:Anyway, enough of that. Back to tyres limiting the cars. I can accept that the tyre might, and I repeat, might be placing drivers in danger, but tyre failings have not arise like in the past and it not seems to be the may reason Pirelli are changing. They are changing because the tyres limit the cars. What about the grooved tyres which are probably the worst idea in the past 20 years when it comes to F1? Drivers stopped to drive eau-rouge flat-out back then and I don't remember such outrage...

Although in that case, the changes were to slow the cars down in the first place. In which case it was mission accomplished as far as anyone was concerned.

Plus, it brought us the joy of watching Villeneuve try to take Eau Rouge flat out with the new generation cars. With predictable results :lol:

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 16 May 2013, 06:57

CarlosFerreira wrote:My point is just about a section of the British press, not about being British. They have this a nagging habit of going on and on about anything that can be perceived as pointing the finger of blame to a well defined entity (Pirelli) in order to create fake outrage and sell a few more thousands editions of printed toilet paper. From the perception that there is a problem to the social construction that the problem requires action to solve.

Rest assured, if Pirelli creates tyres that completely change the dynamics of the races and Vettel wins the Championship by a country mile, the same parts of the press will have a second bite of the cherry, and accuse Pirelli of producing tyres that are too durable, or too close to Red Bull's needs.

Fair enough. I'll have to take your word on it that worldwide newspapers of a similar quality dont do the same thing. We dont read that crap though do we?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 16 May 2013, 09:25

Wizzie wrote:
Although in that case, the changes were to slow the cars down in the first place. In which case it was mission accomplished as far as anyone was concerned.

That was the idea, yes. But only lasted for a whole 3 seasons by the end of which the cars were lapping faster than before. And then a tyre war started... Still, for another 7 years we got stuck with these tyres, hampering not only the performance of the cars as the overtaking due to reduced mechanical grip and yet nobody remembered that the tyres were setting the cars back.
If Pirelli had instead argued that it was also trying to reduce the cornering speeds then people would have stopped protesting? I don't know about that one...

This quote comes from an Autosport piece called the case for grooves:

atlasf1.autosport.com wrote:Improved safety. Return of the full-blooded circuit. Increased overtaking opportunities. Reduced costs. In return for what? Tyres that don't look right, and lets face it they don't! If they should be banned, that is certainly the reason; but it's the only one.

Full-blooded circuit? Increase overtaking opportunities? The beauty of hindsight allows me to laugh at those conclusions.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 17 May 2013, 07:45

CoopsII wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:My point is just about a section of the British press, not about being British. They have this a nagging habit of going on and on about anything that can be perceived as pointing the finger of blame to a well defined entity (Pirelli) in order to create fake outrage and sell a few more thousands editions of printed toilet paper. From the perception that there is a problem to the social construction that the problem requires action to solve.

Fair enough. I'll have to take your word on it that worldwide newspapers of a similar quality dont do the same thing. We dont read that crap though do we?

There are difficult sections of the press everywhere, I imagine. Sensationalism is the order of the day when you need to shift some more toilet paper. But Britain, for whatever reason, has bred an especially disgusting type of tabloid press.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 18 May 2013, 01:30

Official decision time - and this wasn't an easy choice.

In the end, I've gone for Lewis Hamilton. Yes the Pirelli tyres are difficult. Yes the Mercedes is (still) pretty dreadful on its tyres, whatever the set-up. But falling from the front row to a lapped 12th place is bad enough. Watching Nico Rosberg, in ostensibly the same car, manage to hang on for 6th on a three-stopper though, kind of sealed the deal. There was something mildly hilarious about watching Lewis plod around, complaining about being passed by a Williams, and still not being able to nurse his tyres sufficiently.

A word on some of the other worthy candidates. I came very close to giving it to Hulkenberg for the pit collision with Vergne. But on one hand, it was partly the Sauber pit crew's fault for letting him out. And on the other hand, whilst from the outside it just looked as though Nico kept going and drove into JEV without lifting off or braking, and that seemed pretty bad, it really was a split-second moment and I wonder if Nico might have seen the Toro Rosso late, or if he did brake or lift off but it was not enough, and so I just can't be sure enough to give him the award.

As for Red Bull's sour grapes post-race, RBR have been complaining about this year's tyres all year, the fact they renewed their complaints and lobbying post-Barcelona isn't quite event-specific enough to earn them the award. In the past we have given ROTRs for dummy spits, but they were race or event-specific. (Mind you, someone will now trawl through the records and find an exception, no doubt!)

And as for Pirelli, I stand by my comments in the Spanish GP discussion thread. Pirelli's tyres this year, and the "racing" it generates, is not my cup of tea. No doubt about that. But just because we might not like it is not necessarily enough reason to deliver an ROTR award. It's not like Pirelli screwed everyone up, a la Michelin at Indy 2005. The Pirellis are the same for everyone, it's a limiting factor on this year's performance, but it poses a challenge for teams and drivers to get around (even if we don't like the nature of that particular challenge). Some teams are handling it better than others, and that's the way it should be. 4 stops at Barcelona was probably a bit much, even Pirelli recognises that, but that is as much to do with the characteristics of the Catalunya circuit. The same tyres on another track might mean a 2 or 3-stop race only. On that line of argument, I can't see that Pirelli have really done anything wrong per se.