2013 Silly Season Thread

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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Sunshine_Baby_[IT] »

Backmarker wrote:
East Londoner wrote:I'm personally quite glad to see Timo gone, if this is the case, as he's given the impression that he just doesn't care anymore. One fantastic performance in THREE years is a dreadful return, in contrast with Heikki at Caterham, who gave it his all in 2010 and 2011.


I agree. Presumably this opens the door for Petrov at Marussia, who doesn't deserve to lose his chance in F1.

I'm not so sad about seeing Glock out of F1 (he's surely not one of my favourite drivers and I don't like that he was complaining almost everytime that Pic shown to be as fast as him); I suppose that Petrov will replace him... and I think that Petrov deserves to stay in F1.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by DanielPT »

A shame that Glock is about to leave F1. I really think that he had some potential. At least to be a number two at a good team. I believe he was better than Kovalainen. Anyway, it would be ironic if he ended up being replaced by the latter, somehow (I am imagining Petrov would stay at Caterham to keep some sort of continuity).
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by madmark1974 »

DanielPT wrote:... Kovalainen. Anyway, it would be ironic if he ended up being replaced by the latter, somehow (I am imagining Petrov would stay at Caterham to keep some sort of continuity).


I'm not so sure - Marussia's statement talks about tough economical times and Kovy for Glock wouldn't bring about many changes in that aspect - I suspect that Marussia found out Petrov was available and just had to
shuffle Glock out of the way to be able to get him. All the early off-season rumours were that Caterham were going to dump both drivers. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see ...
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by CarlosFerreira »

DanielPT wrote:A shame that Glock is about to leave F1. I really think that he had some potential. At least to be a number two at a good team. I believe he was better than Kovalainen.


I generally agree with this. In fact, it surprises me that when the press was busy trying to get Ferrari to dump Massa, nobody mentioned that Glock could actually be the best fit.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by DanielPT »

madmark1974 wrote:
DanielPT wrote:... Kovalainen. Anyway, it would be ironic if he ended up being replaced by the latter, somehow (I am imagining Petrov would stay at Caterham to keep some sort of continuity).


I'm not so sure - Marussia's statement talks about tough economical times and Kovy for Glock wouldn't bring about many changes in that aspect - I suspect that Marussia found out Petrov was available and just had to
shuffle Glock out of the way to be able to get him. All the early off-season rumours were that Caterham were going to dump both drivers. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see ...


Well, that might be, but I suspect that Petrov not being confirmed at Caterham has got more to do with their sponsors being slow putting the cash in rather than the team wanting another driver. Both teams could use the cash boost.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Zetec »

It is not really "Glock leaving F1". It is more likely "Glock being pushed out of the way, for not being a paydriver".
In the end it wasn't Glock, who wanted to leave, it was Marussia booting him out, for not bringing any cash.
And I think, like Kovalainen, Glock doesn't want to bring any money.
Seen from a different view, I think Glock will be happy that he is released out of this contract. Honestly, it would have been another 2 years dumpling at the end of the field.
Now he can look for another drive in a competitive car in a competitive championship (maybe DTM?).

But hearing Marussia having a problem paying Glock's salary, I'm just asking myself, how long this team will last?
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Zetec wrote:It is not really "Glock leaving F1". It is more likely "Glock being pushed out of the way, for not being a paydriver".
In the end it wasn't Glock, who wanted to leave, it was Marussia booting him out, for not bringing any cash.
And I think, like Kovalainen, Glock doesn't want to bring any money.
Seen from a different view, I think Glock will be happy that he is released out of this contract. Honestly, it would have been another 2 years dumpling at the end of the field.
Now he can look for another drive in a competitive car in a competitive championship (maybe DTM?).

But hearing Marussia having a problem paying Glock's salary, I'm just asking myself, how long this team will last?


What time is it over there?

I don't think Marussia/Virgin/Whatever are going to be on the grid for 2014. Have they announced if they'll have a new car for testing in 2013?

Are they going to show us a nosecone, at least?
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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Zetec wrote:Seen from a different view, I think Glock will be happy that he is released out of this contract. Honestly, it would have been another 2 years dumpling at the end of the field.
Now he can look for another drive in a competitive car in a competitive championship (maybe DTM?).


It's the closest thing to a win-win for Glock: a pay-off to not race and probably a nice paying drive in the DTM. He is 30 years old and it is extremely unlikely that Marussia would drastically have moved up the grid or that he would have found a drive with a top team.

Zetec wrote:But hearing Marussia having a problem paying Glock's salary, I'm just asking myself, how long this team will last?


What makes you think Marussia has a problem paying Glock's salary?
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by AndreaModa »

Well that is sad news, now its been confirmed. I think the important point to take out of all of this is that Marussia have been paying Glock since 2010, and that more than a lot of things in my view shows how committed they've been to the sport from the start and in pursuit of success.

If anything, people angry or disgruntled at seeing Glock shuffled aside should direct their anger at the FOM for cutting the payments to teams below 10th in the constructors' championship. That's a decision they'll live to regret in my view. There's no way the smaller teams are going to be able to survive when those above them are getting financial handouts like share dividends whilst the theoretical "lower class" of teams below 10th struggle on with nothing.

It'll be interesting to see who they end up putting in the other car, but I don't think they need a significant amount of money as Chilton already covers what Pic brought last year. The loss of payments from FOM is balanced by Glock's departure more or less I suspect, so that leaves things quite wide open as to who they'll choose.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by mario »

madmark1974 wrote:
QuickYoda41 wrote:I don't know what one needs for a Force India-drive but I'm waiting for the next rumour about them hiring Glock. :lol:

I'd be really surprised now if the Marussia-seat didn't go for Petrov.


I agree about Petrov - seems inevitable.

A shame for Timo though, he's a likeable guy and has done well in the past when opportunities allowed. If he's out in the driver market he has a lot more credentials than many of the candidates floating around,
only Heiiki can boast better past results, with Petrov and Kobysashi having also claimed a podium - something that Sutil, Alguersuari and Senna do not have. But I don't think these guys are being hired (or otherwise)
on the basis of results any longer, sadly ...

I presume that most are expecting Petrov to Marussia and van der Garde to take his place at Caterham then, given that the odds of the team retaining either one of its drivers in 2013 seem to be lengthening. Mind you, one of those drivers - Sutil - may be in with a chance of getting back onto the grid for 2013 if the rumours about Force India's negotiations with him are true (with the suggestion that Sutil may be the preferred driver, but Ferrari's weight behind Bianchi's bid has complicated things considerably).

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Zetec wrote:It is not really "Glock leaving F1". It is more likely "Glock being pushed out of the way, for not being a paydriver".
In the end it wasn't Glock, who wanted to leave, it was Marussia booting him out, for not bringing any cash.
And I think, like Kovalainen, Glock doesn't want to bring any money.
Seen from a different view, I think Glock will be happy that he is released out of this contract. Honestly, it would have been another 2 years dumpling at the end of the field.
Now he can look for another drive in a competitive car in a competitive championship (maybe DTM?).

But hearing Marussia having a problem paying Glock's salary, I'm just asking myself, how long this team will last?


What time is it over there?

I don't think Marussia/Virgin/Whatever are going to be on the grid for 2014. Have they announced if they'll have a new car for testing in 2013?

Are they going to show us a nosecone, at least?

They haven't made any formal announcement about their testing plans, nor have they announced when they'll launch their car either - then again, neither have Caterham or Lotus, whilst Williams have pushed back their car launch by two weeks, so I wouldn't take it as a definite sign of problems.
As for the question of Marussia's long term survival, to be honest I am not entirely sure whether they will last that much longer either - we know that FOM are moving to cut off payments to them (they seem to want to restrict the cut of the TV revenue that the teams gets to just the top 10 teams), and their latest accounts have shown that the team is already heavily in debt and was running at a loss in their last set of accounts. Add to that the loss of Pic to Caterham - although that does seem to be being offset by Chilton's arrival - and things are not looking great, unless they can get some serious sponsorship leverage behind themselves.

QuickYoda41 wrote:I don't know what one needs for a Force India-drive but I'm waiting for the next rumour about them hiring Glock. :lol:

I'd be really surprised now if the Marussia-seat didn't go for Petrov.

Considering that Bianchi isn't a shoe in despite having the full weight of Ferrari behind him (Domenicali has confirmed that Ferrari is actively involved in Bianchi's negotiations, with rumours abounding of an offer of an extensive technical partnership, along the lines of Sauber's deal with Ferrari, to sweeten the deal with Force India), it looks like Force India are making the decision very much on their terms rather than that of the driver.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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Faustus wrote:
Zetec wrote:But hearing Marussia having a problem paying Glock's salary, I'm just asking myself, how long this team will last?


What makes you think Marussia has a problem paying Glock's salary?


The fact that Glock has left the Marussia building and the fact that he earns almost $ 4 million a year :D
He was their driver the last 3 years and the only one able to compare last year's car with the new one on track. And he's not that bad, either. So he is still valueable for the team.
So why would you give him the boot and giving financial reasons as an explanation, if paying wouldn't be a problem? So getting rid of Glock and hiring a paydriver bringing, let's say $ 5 million, is an almost $ 10 million plus for Marussia.

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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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Zetec wrote:
Faustus wrote:
Zetec wrote:But hearing Marussia having a problem paying Glock's salary, I'm just asking myself, how long this team will last?


What makes you think Marussia has a problem paying Glock's salary?


The fact that Glock has left the Marussia building and the fact that he earns almost $ 4 million a year :D
He was their driver the last 3 years and the only one able to compare last year's car with the new one on track. And he's not that bad, either. So he is still valueable for the team.
So why would you give him the boot and giving financial reasons as an explanation, if paying wouldn't be a problem? So getting rid of Glock and hiring a paydriver bringing, let's say $ 5 million, is an almost $ 10 million plus for Marussia.

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The point is that Marussia can earn more from taking on a pay-driver, thus paying off Glock's salary and still being up several million dollars. It's not a case of not being able to afford Glock, it's a case of needing money and of survival being more important than any sense of loyalty towards a driver.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Verde »

Just wondering...

It's not nonsense imagine that Timo Glock would have been retained had Marussia achieved that 10th place in the Constructors championship, given the fact the team would have earned that welcome sum of money ensured to the teams within Top 10.

Marussia was running 11th with Charles Pic during the last laps of the Brazilian Grand Prix. At that point, we knew Pic was moving from Marussia to Caterham in 2013. If Pic had finished 11th, ahead of Vitaly Petrov's Caterham, Marussia would be 10th instead of Caterham, which by chance would be Pic's new home in the following season. Therefore Pic would be screwing up the budget of his future team in favour of his past team (which is also his future team's main rival).

I know that Jean-Éric Vergne had ruined most of Marussia chances during that race, but nothing can convince me that Pic simply didn't push enough on purpose and let Vitaly go through easily. All the circumstances would lead to such an attitude there. I wouldn't like to be unfair towards Pic (a driver I enjoyed watching last year), but there's simply no reason for him not to do that.

That said, I believe if Pic had remained in Marussia, the chances of him being more bold and aggresive in the scramble against Petrov would have been way bigger. And perhaps he could have finished 11th in Interlagos and made his team the tenth best one. And then it would have the money granted for 2013. And they wouldn't need to be so worried about budget. And Glock would have been kept.

On the other hand, there would be no Max Chilton and his loaded daddy paying all the bills. And the team would be risked anyway. And Glock could be out the same way. Confusing.

That's what I call "butterfly effect".
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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Verde wrote:Just wondering...

It's not nonsense imagine that Timo Glock would have been retained had Marussia achieved that 10th place in the Constructors championship, given the fact the team would have earned that welcome sum of money ensured to the teams within Top 10.

Marussia was running 11th with Charles Pic during the last laps of the Brazilian Grand Prix. At that point, we knew Pic was moving from Marussia to Caterham in 2013. If Pic had finished 11th, ahead of Vitaly Petrov's Caterham, Marussia would be 10th instead of Caterham, which by chance would be Pic's new home in the following season. Therefore Pic would be screwing up the budget of his future team in favour of his past team (which is also his future team's main rival).

I know that Jean-Éric Vergne had ruined most of Marussia chances during that race, but nothing can convince me that Pic simply didn't push enough on purpose and let Vitaly go through easily. All the circumstances would lead to such an attitude there. I wouldn't like to be unfair towards Pic (a driver I enjoyed watching last year), but there's simply no reason for him not to do that.

That said, I believe if Pic had remained in Marussia, the chances of him being more bold and aggresive in the scramble against Petrov would have been way bigger. And perhaps he could have finished 11th in Interlagos and made his team the tenth best one. And then it would have the money granted for 2013. And they wouldn't need to be so worried about budget. And Glock would have been kept.

On the other hand, there would be no Max Chilton and his loaded daddy paying all the bills. And the team would be risked anyway. And Glock could be out the same way. Confusing.

That's what I call "butterfly effect".


I see your point, but I reckon it's all moot, since even if Pic was inclined to fight for the position, I don't think he could've kept Petrov behind - the Caterham had KERS and Pic's Marussia did not.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I see your point, but I reckon it's all moot, since even if Pic was inclined to fight for the position, I don't think he could've kept Petrov behind - the Caterham had KERS and Pic's Marussia did not.


Well, I just did a short research on FORIX and it seems that Pic wasn't really slower than Petrov. But there are some laps, where Pic had a big drop in laptimes, which gave Petrov obviously the time to catch up. After their pitstops Pic started to loose alot of time every lap. Then after the overtaking, let's not talk about Pic's laptimes.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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mario wrote:.
As for the question of Marussia's long term survival, to be honest I am not entirely sure whether they will last that much longer either - we know that FOM are moving to cut off payments to them (they seem to want to restrict the cut of the TV revenue that the teams gets to just the top 10 teams), and their latest accounts have shown that the team is already heavily in debt and was running at a loss in their last set of accounts. Add to that the loss of Pic to Caterham - although that does seem to be being offset by Chilton's arrival - and things are not looking great, unless they can get some serious sponsorship leverage behind themselves.


If that does happen, could we only see 10 teams in 2013? :cry:
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by 14 Hundred Hours »

I for one am sad to see him go. He wasn't the best driver but he was better than some, and damnit I liked the guy.
I didn't like seeing him struggle/giving up at times at Marussia though, so I suppose that's one good thing about his leaving.
Anyway. I would be off to lie on the floor and writhe about in mock agony, but I got that out of my system at school.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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FOM are greedy bastards. There's more than enough TV money to go around so that each team gets some. :evil:

I've never understood why the team that finishes in last place in the championship isn't entitled to TV money. It's bloody stupid.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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East Londoner wrote:FOM are greedy bastards. There's more than enough TV money to go around so that each team gets some. :evil:

I've never understood why the team that finishes in last place in the championship is not entitled to TV money. It's bloody stupid.


This. They'll definitely regret bringing this in, its a massive mistake. F1 is a richer sport when there are more teams involved, it's probably the one thing that was missing when the manufacturers were all involved five years ago.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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East Londoner wrote:FOM are greedy bastards. There's more than enough TV money to go around so that each team gets some. :evil:

I've never understood why the team that finishes in last place in the championship is not entitled to TV money. It's bloody stupid.


I may be entirely wrong, but I think the reason is someone in FOM has decided some time ago that the optimum size for the F1 grid is 20 cars. That way there's money enough to go around, the series is competitive, and there is very little in the way of 1970s-80s-90s rejectfulness. A shame, really.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by GwilymJJames »

FMecha wrote:
mario wrote:.
As for the question of Marussia's long term survival, to be honest I am not entirely sure whether they will last that much longer either - we know that FOM are moving to cut off payments to them (they seem to want to restrict the cut of the TV revenue that the teams gets to just the top 10 teams), and their latest accounts have shown that the team is already heavily in debt and was running at a loss in their last set of accounts. Add to that the loss of Pic to Caterham - although that does seem to be being offset by Chilton's arrival - and things are not looking great, unless they can get some serious sponsorship leverage behind themselves.


If that does happen, could we only see 10 teams in 2013? :cry:

I think we'll see all eleven teams in 2013, but I very much doubt we'll have 11 teams - certainly not the same 11 teams - in 2014.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Sunshine_Baby_[IT] »

East Londoner wrote:FOM are greedy bastards. There's more than enough TV money to go around so that each team gets some. :evil:

I've never understood why the team that finishes in last place in the championship isn't entitled to TV money. It's bloody stupid.

I agree with your opinion.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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Petrov management denies talks with Marussia.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Sunshine_Baby_[IT] »

solarcold wrote:Petrov management denies talks with Marussia.

I won't be sure he won't go to Marussia until the driver that will replace Glock won't be announced. :-)
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

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CarlosFerreira wrote:
East Londoner wrote:FOM are greedy bastards. There's more than enough TV money to go around so that each team gets some. :evil:

I've never understood why the team that finishes in last place in the championship is not entitled to TV money. It's bloody stupid.


I may be entirely wrong, but I think the reason is someone in FOM has decided some time ago that the optimum size for the F1 grid is 20 cars. That way there's money enough to go around, the series is competitive, and there is very little in the way of 1970s-80s-90s rejectfulness. A shame, really.


The fundamental point there though is that it never had to be that way. F1 had the opportunity in 2010 to put three well funded, well managed, reputable teams on the grid and take us up to 26 cars, and secure the sport's future, even if other established teams later pulled out. Instead, we get three entries that have made next to no progress in three years, and a laughing stock attempt from America. That was the moment when F1's long term future should have been secured, instead we have a situation where the teams and FIA are on a slow slippery slope to oblivion unless fundamental changes like a budget cap can be enforced.

Aside from Caterham and Marussia, the "newest" team on the grid (and by that I mean completely new entry, starting from scratch) is Red Bull, from 1997 for crying out loud! Every other team that has been founded since then has fallen by the wayside - Toyota, Super Aguri, and now HRT. Since 1997 there have been five properly new entries into the sport, three have gone bust, one is looking shaky, and the other is still mired at the back. That to me doesn't look like a sound, sustainable foundation for the future of F1. Because history tells us that even the mighty teams will one day fall from grace - Tyrrell, Lotus, Brabham, Jordan. Of the current teams, Force India's predicament gets worse by the week it seems, Williams are on their way down, Sauber aren't much better, you can tell Mercedes are questioning their involvement and Toro Rosso have officially been up for sale for years, so who will fill the gap?
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by CarlosFerreira »

AndreaModa wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
East Londoner wrote:FOM are greedy bastards. There's more than enough TV money to go around so that each team gets some. :evil:

I've never understood why the team that finishes in last place in the championship is not entitled to TV money. It's bloody stupid.


I may be entirely wrong, but I think the reason is someone in FOM has decided some time ago that the optimum size for the F1 grid is 20 cars. That way there's money enough to go around, the series is competitive, and there is very little in the way of 1970s-80s-90s rejectfulness. A shame, really.


The fundamental point there though is that it never had to be that way. F1 had the opportunity in 2010 to put three well funded, well managed, reputable teams on the grid and take us up to 26 cars, and secure the sport's future, even if other established teams later pulled out. Instead, we get three entries that have made next to no progress in three years, and a laughing stock attempt from America. That was the moment when F1's long term future should have been secured, instead we have a situation where the teams and FIA are on a slow slippery slope to oblivion unless fundamental changes like a budget cap can be enforced.

Aside from Caterham and Marussia, the "newest" team on the grid (and by that I mean completely new entry, starting from scratch) is Red Bull, from 1997 for crying out loud! Every other team that has been founded since then has fallen by the wayside - Toyota, Super Aguri, and now HRT. Since 1997 there have been five properly new entries into the sport, three have gone bust, one is looking shaky, and the other is still mired at the back. That to me doesn't look like a sound, sustainable foundation for the future of F1. Because history tells us that even the mighty teams will one day fall from grace - Tyrrell, Lotus, Brabham, Jordan. Of the current teams, Force India's predicament gets worse by the week it seems, Williams are on their way down, Sauber aren't much better, you can tell Mercedes are questioning their involvement and Toro Rosso have officially been up for sale for years, so who will fill the gap?


There won't be resource agreements. F1 is all about go big, or go home.

If you wan to see the problem illustrated, note the mistake MotoGP is doing with the CRT class: nobody cares about the poor cheapskates.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Verde »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
I may be entirely wrong, but I think the reason is someone in FOM has decided some time ago that the optimum size for the F1 grid is 20 cars. That way there's money enough to go around, the series is competitive, and there is very little in the way of 1970s-80s-90s rejectfulness. A shame, really.


The fundamental point there though is that it never had to be that way. F1 had the opportunity in 2010 to put three well funded, well managed, reputable teams on the grid and take us up to 26 cars, and secure the sport's future, even if other established teams later pulled out. Instead, we get three entries that have made next to no progress in three years, and a laughing stock attempt from America. That was the moment when F1's long term future should have been secured, instead we have a situation where the teams and FIA are on a slow slippery slope to oblivion unless fundamental changes like a budget cap can be enforced.

Aside from Caterham and Marussia, the "newest" team on the grid (and by that I mean completely new entry, starting from scratch) is Red Bull, from 1997 for crying out loud! Every other team that has been founded since then has fallen by the wayside - Toyota, Super Aguri, and now HRT. Since 1997 there have been five properly new entries into the sport, three have gone bust, one is looking shaky, and the other is still mired at the back. That to me doesn't look like a sound, sustainable foundation for the future of F1. Because history tells us that even the mighty teams will one day fall from grace - Tyrrell, Lotus, Brabham, Jordan. Of the current teams, Force India's predicament gets worse by the week it seems, Williams are on their way down, Sauber aren't much better, you can tell Mercedes are questioning their involvement and Toro Rosso have officially been up for sale for years, so who will fill the gap?


There won't be resource agreements. F1 is all about go big, or go home.

If you wan to see the problem illustrated, note the mistake MotoGP is doing with the CRT class: nobody cares about the poor cheapskates.


CRT was not a mistake as half the grid is made up of this type of motorcycles. Were it not for them, we would have only 12 attending most of the races.

And I see some of them evolving much more than Caterham or Marussia in Formula One: in the end of last year, Randy de Puniet and Aleix Espargaró were already running inside top 10 without major troubles. Maybe in two or three years, the best of them can match "standard" teams.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by FMecha »

GwilymJJames wrote:
FMecha wrote:
mario wrote:.
As for the question of Marussia's long term survival, to be honest I am not entirely sure whether they will last that much longer either - we know that FOM are moving to cut off payments to them (they seem to want to restrict the cut of the TV revenue that the teams gets to just the top 10 teams), and their latest accounts have shown that the team is already heavily in debt and was running at a loss in their last set of accounts. Add to that the loss of Pic to Caterham - although that does seem to be being offset by Chilton's arrival - and things are not looking great, unless they can get some serious sponsorship leverage behind themselves.


If that does happen, could we only see 10 teams in 2013? :cry:

I think we'll see all eleven teams in 2013, but I very much doubt we'll have 11 teams - certainly not the same 11 teams - in 2014.


Sorry - I was indeed meaning "10 teams in 2014". Damn typos. :oops:
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by AndreaModa »

Haha, don't get me started on CRT! :lol:

The thing with CRT is that it was a half-hearted effort, and too similar to WSBK. If Dorna can get World Superbikes back to its roots, then CRT has a future in MotoGP, the problem is that currently it's a waste of time because half the grid is still prototypes. With MotoGP, and motorcycling in general, the costs are much easier to control because there's far less spent on aerodynamics - for bikes it's all about mechanical grip, which is why electronics have become so fundamental to the sport. Ditch the expensive ECUs and suddenly prototypes will become affordable to run again, because all that's left on a bike once the gizmos are gone is the engine, gearbox, fuel and tyres. We can see that there are plenty of privateer chassis builders still out there because of the popularity of CRT and what's happening in Moto2 and 3. Give these privateer teams cheap engines from the manufacturers and suddenly you have a grid full of prototypes again. The problem is at the moment is with the engines you need the electronics to manage them. Remove the electronics, bring down the price and voila.

With F1, there's a lot more areas where money can be spent, so the effect is much greater, and obviously much harder to police. But that makes it much more necessary to curb costs. You can't turn up to F1 with a chassis anymore and secure an engine, tyre and fuel contract like you could before and just go racing. To an extent you still can in MotoGP, thanks to the CRT rule, and would be able to without the electronics as I explained above. F1 needs cost control because there's no other way round it. It's either a budget cap or a slow process where each team will go to the wall as costs get further and further out of hand.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Verde wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:There won't be resource agreements. F1 is all about go big, or go home.

If you wan to see the problem illustrated, note the mistake MotoGP is doing with the CRT class: nobody cares about the poor cheapskates.


CRT was not a mistake as half the grid is made up of this type of motorcycles. Were it not for them, we would have only 12 attending most of the races.

And I see some of them evolving much more than Caterham or Marussia in Formula One: in the end of last year, Randy de Puniet and Aleix Espargaró were already running inside top 10 without major troubles. Maybe in two or three years, the best of them can match "standard" teams.


I won't take this thread down the MotoGP route (we can discuss it elsewhere), but the fact is except for the Aspar team, CRT is a rejectful pile of wannabes and rent-a-riders. Most of those fellows, wonderful and brave though they are, are not even World SBK material. Or British SBK material, for that matter.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Verde »

AndreaModa wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
East Londoner wrote:FOM are greedy bastards. There's more than enough TV money to go around so that each team gets some. :evil:

I've never understood why the team that finishes in last place in the championship is not entitled to TV money. It's bloody stupid.


I may be entirely wrong, but I think the reason is someone in FOM has decided some time ago that the optimum size for the F1 grid is 20 cars. That way there's money enough to go around, the series is competitive, and there is very little in the way of 1970s-80s-90s rejectfulness. A shame, really.


The fundamental point there though is that it never had to be that way. F1 had the opportunity in 2010 to put three well funded, well managed, reputable teams on the grid and take us up to 26 cars, and secure the sport's future, even if other established teams later pulled out. Instead, we get three entries that have made next to no progress in three years, and a laughing stock attempt from America. That was the moment when F1's long term future should have been secured, instead we have a situation where the teams and FIA are on a slow slippery slope to oblivion unless fundamental changes like a budget cap can be enforced.

Aside from Caterham and Marussia, the "newest" team on the grid (and by that I mean completely new entry, starting from scratch) is Red Bull, from 1997 for crying out loud! Every other team that has been founded since then has fallen by the wayside - Toyota, Super Aguri, and now HRT. Since 1997 there have been five properly new entries into the sport, three have gone bust, one is looking shaky, and the other is still mired at the back. That to me doesn't look like a sound, sustainable foundation for the future of F1. Because history tells us that even the mighty teams will one day fall from grace - Tyrrell, Lotus, Brabham, Jordan. Of the current teams, Force India's predicament gets worse by the week it seems, Williams are on their way down, Sauber aren't much better, you can tell Mercedes are questioning their involvement and Toro Rosso have officially been up for sale for years, so who will fill the gap?


I tend to consider that the choice made by FIA was the best possible. USF1 seemed a good project because Windsor and Anderson were already working on it for some years and they pledged that would be in Formula 1 no matter if the budget cap would be accepted or no. The biggest problem was to believe that American companies would show up in droves, which of course didn't happen.

Campos was a serious project with good know-how and an excellent partnership with Dallara, but its fate was determined by the fact the Spanish companies weren't keen on it as well - note that Spain was already drowned in an economic crisis.

Manor was probably the worst of the projects, but Richard Branson came up and saved their asses. John Booth (a very experienced guy from lower formulae) probably realized that wouldn't have money for running the team and sold the spot not long after his entry was accepted.

What about the other contenders? Prodrive couldn't make it even when they were granted the 12th spot for the 2008 season. Epsilon Euskadi tried twice, got nothing and where are they now? Lola got into administration and God only knows what would have happened to its hypothetical Formula 1 team. And the other ones don't deserve a mention.

The problem is not with the teams, but with the model of business of Formula 1. Only a few people have the cash, the financial safety, the willing and the craziness to be there. If this cannot be changed, we're not far away from the day we'll have to say farewell to our beloved sport.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by mario »

GwilymJJames wrote:
FMecha wrote:
mario wrote:.
As for the question of Marussia's long term survival, to be honest I am not entirely sure whether they will last that much longer either - we know that FOM are moving to cut off payments to them (they seem to want to restrict the cut of the TV revenue that the teams gets to just the top 10 teams), and their latest accounts have shown that the team is already heavily in debt and was running at a loss in their last set of accounts. Add to that the loss of Pic to Caterham - although that does seem to be being offset by Chilton's arrival - and things are not looking great, unless they can get some serious sponsorship leverage behind themselves.


If that does happen, could we only see 10 teams in 2013? :cry:

I think we'll see all eleven teams in 2013, but I very much doubt we'll have 11 teams - certainly not the same 11 teams - in 2014.

I would not be surprised if that is the case, although there have been some raising fears about some of the teams for some time (fairly recently, Craig Scarborough mentioned via Twitter that the finances of some of the teams appears to be in fairly poor health at the moment, though he declined to name names in case it made things worse for the team in question). Overall, few teams are that healthy in terms of their finances at the moment - as AndreaModa points out, few of the midfield teams are in that healthy a state and even some of the larger teams are perhaps a little more strained with their finances than they'd like to admit.
Yet, at the same time, even though some of the wealthiest teams have complained about the cost of competing, few teams are willing to back a full blown budget cap - the only outfits that have really thrown their weight publicly behind such an idea were Caterham and Sauber, neither of whom have the leverage within the sport to effect those changes. Williams not be in great health, given their dependence on Maldonado's sponsorship, but at the same time you get the sense that Sir Frank would rather shut the team down than let the FIA impose a budget cap, and the opinion seems to be shared by several other outfits. It's a difficult situation, and one which is unlikely to be resolved soon.
Even the shock of seeing three major manufacturers (BMW, Honda and Toyota) pull out in quick succession hasn't brought about that much change, and with some of the major teams getting more influence within FOM (rumours of non executive positions for the major teams within FOM and slightly more favourable revenue terms in return for a quick agreement to the Concorde Agreement), I can't see them readily agreeing to help the smaller teams out that much lest they lose their own power base.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by FMecha »

Did I hear James Allen's "prophecy" (posted here by Wallio around September-October 2012 IIRC) were getting true? :?
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Ataxia »

Personally, I'm very surprised that there's not some Middle-Eastern involvement at the moment. We hear that various investors from the UAE and Qatar in particular are involved with or linked to many football teams, and with transfers of top players around the £30M mark F1 seems a more cost effective option. Plus, there's the added interest with the Abu Dhabi and Bahrain Grand Prixs too...

Perhaps there's some layer of bureaucracy somewhere that turns them off? I don't know.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by AndreaModa »

Verde wrote:I tend to consider that the choice made by FIA was the best possible. USF1 seemed a good project because Windsor and Anderson were already working on it for some years and they pledged that would be in Formula 1 no matter if the budget cap would be accepted or no. The biggest problem was to believe that American companies would show up in droves, which of course didn't happen.

Campos was a serious project with good know-how and an excellent partnership with Dallara, but its fate was determined by the fact the Spanish companies weren't keen on it as well - note that Spain was already drowned in an economic crisis.

Manor was probably the worst of the projects, but Richard Branson came up and saved their asses. John Booth (a very experienced guy from lower formulae) probably realized that wouldn't have money for running the team and sold the spot not long after his entry was accepted.

What about the other contenders? Prodrive couldn't make it even when they were granted the 12th spot for the 2008 season. Epsilon Euskadi tried twice, got nothing and where are they now? Lola got into administration and God only knows what would have happened to its hypothetical Formula 1 team. And the other ones don't deserve a mention.

The problem is not with the teams, but with the model of business of Formula 1. Only a few people have the cash, the financial safety, the willing and the craziness to be there. If this cannot be changed, we're not far away from the day we'll have to say farewell to our beloved sport.


I don't. Of the teams you've listed there, USF1 and Campos were based around speculative business models - i.e. they had grand plans that looked impressive, but nothing down on paper. Anderson and Windsor had their contacts and know-how, Campos had a contract with Dallara, that was it. Both wanted to exploit new markets for F1 which seemed like a good idea, but at the time of entry they had nothing to prove that a business model around that idea could work. The FIA either knew this and took a massive gamble, or were incompetent enough not to see potential future problems.

The 1Malaysia bid was essentially the same idea - a Malaysian team in F1 and that's why bizarrely they still run under a Malaysian flag despite being called Caterham who have no links to Malaysia whatsoever and are based in Leafield. That tells you a lot about how successful those kind of projects really turn out to be. The same can be said of Force India.

And that leaves Manor, which quickly became Virgin, which then became Marussia. Aside from the small fuel tank and Maria de Villota's accident they've managed to keep themselves largely out of trouble, but on a very low budget. Only at the end of 2012 did they start to get closer to Caterham and it remains to be seen how much they can progress for 2013. What's clear is, as you said, John Booth knew right from the start that Manor on it's own were never big enough to tackle F1. So that begs the question why the FIA granted them one of the slots in the first place.

The FIA made a massive error demanding the new teams had to use Cosworth engines and the Xtrac gearboxes, if they'd given them more freedom we could have had some far better quality entrants because I think those demands were a major factor in which teams the FIA selected. Instead we got a hotch-potch of crack-pot ideas some which failed, others which haven't yet but probably will in a couple of years time, and that's sad when you think of what might have been.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Salamander »

AndreaModa wrote:The FIA made a massive error demanding the new teams had to use Cosworth engines and the Xtrac gearboxes, if they'd given them more freedom we could have had some far better quality entrants because I think those demands were a major factor in which teams the FIA selected. Instead we got a hotch-potch of crack-pot ideas some which failed, others which haven't yet but probably will in a couple of years time, and that's sad when you think of what might have been.


Especially the Xtrac gearboxes, those were utter rubbish and a complete waste of time and money.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by AndreaModa »

Ataxia [BacLettNinj] wrote:Personally, I'm very surprised that there's not some Middle-Eastern involvement at the moment. We hear that various investors from the UAE and Qatar in particular are involved with or linked to many football teams, and with transfers of top players around the £30M mark F1 seems a more cost effective option. Plus, there's the added interest with the Abu Dhabi and Bahrain Grand Prixs too...

Perhaps there's some layer of bureaucracy somewhere that turns them off? I don't know.


That's a good point. Take a look at F1 Powerboats and the level of Middle East involvement there - Qatar Team and Team Abu Dhabi, plus the new head of the UIM is Qatari too I think. One race in Qatar and two in the UAE as well. Maybe they just like water sports more I don't know.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by girry »

Verde wrote:What about the other contenders? Prodrive couldn't make it even when they were granted the 12th spot for the 2008 season. Epsilon Euskadi tried twice, got nothing and where are they now? Lola got into administration and God only knows what would have happened to its hypothetical Formula 1 team. And the other ones don't deserve a mention.


Prodrive didn't make it in 2008 solely because they had been assured that they could buy their chassis. They couldn't, so that one failed - I think they would easily have made it had they been given another chance in 2010

EE didn't get in (iirc) because they'd have used Mercedes engines, because they didn't to f1 in the apparent funding collapsed - otherwise that project would have been sustainable and actually promising since they had already been building LMP1 cars and had in place the factory and facilities for a working f1 team...

Lola are a bit of the same case - doubt they would be in administration if they had got an f1 team up and working.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by Klon »

mario wrote:Williams not be in great health, given their dependence on Maldonado's sponsorship, but at the same time you get the sense that Sir Frank would rather shut the team down than let the FIA impose a budget cap, and the opinion seems to be shared by several other outfits.


Actually, Williams was one of the few teams who were willing to run the budget cap seeing as they were not a part of Formula Elaborate Bluff in the later stages. The bigger problem with Williams is that they, despite their tradition, are worthless in today's F1 - their political power is as powerful as Williams' legs so even if they are in favour of a cap, it just doesn't matter.

Ataxia [BacLettNinj] wrote:We hear that various investors from the UAE and Qatar in particular are involved with or linked to many football teams, and with transfers of top players around the £30M mark F1 seems a more cost effective option.


Well, not really. With the average yearly budget of a Formula 1 team, you could fund the transfer budget of a major European soccer team for at least three, if not four or five, years: Soccer is a much better investment.
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Re: 2013 Silly Season Thread

Post by 14 Hundred Hours »

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:The FIA made a massive error demanding the new teams had to use Cosworth engines and the Xtrac gearboxes, if they'd given them more freedom we could have had some far better quality entrants because I think those demands were a major factor in which teams the FIA selected. Instead we got a hotch-potch of crack-pot ideas some which failed, others which haven't yet but probably will in a couple of years time, and that's sad when you think of what might have been.


Especially the Xtrac gearboxes, those were utter rubbish and a complete waste of time and money.


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