The Marcus Grönholm Rally Thread

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 29 Mar 2012, 20:59

East Londoner wrote:Loeb has...crashed out!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98460

Now how the bathplug did that happen?

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 29 Mar 2012, 21:48

Wizzie wrote:
East Londoner wrote:Loeb has...crashed out!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98460

Now how the bathplug did that happen?

My guess would be roadsweeping, being dragged along Paulo Nobre's poorly driven racing line, and driving in the rather slow Paulo Nobre's dust.

Post by **mario** » 29 Mar 2012, 22:54

kostas22 wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
East Londoner wrote:Loeb has...crashed out!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98460

Now how the bathplug did that happen?

My guess would be roadsweeping, being dragged along Paulo Nobre's poorly driven racing line, and driving in the rather slow Paulo Nobre's dust.

You do realise that Nobre withdrew from the event after crashing during the recce (in other words, before the rally even really started)? I believe that he wrote off the roll cage in the process, which automatically forces you to withdraw from the event.

The latest reports suggest that Loeb misinterpreted a pace note from his co-driver, which meant that instead of turning right as he approached a crest, he turned left (possibly because the road kinked slightly to the left before the crest, which might have momentarily distracted Loeb). They also confirm that, because the roof bars of the roll cage have been bent out of shape, Loeb has now formally withdrawn from the rally. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98462

Overall, it looks like the strategies Citroen and Ford had turned out fairly even in the end - Latvala has, surprisingly, kept the car on the road and is now leading the event, albeit with Solberg and Hirvonen running only a handful of seconds behind him. I guess we're going to have a fairly tight battle for the lead now - not just for this rally, but if either Hirvonen or Solberg can take the lead of the rally, they can take the lead of the championship too.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 30 Mar 2012, 08:13

mario wrote:
kostas22 wrote:My guess would be roadsweeping, being dragged along Paulo Nobre's poorly driven racing line, and driving in the rather slow Paulo Nobre's dust.

You do realise that Nobre withdrew from the event after crashing during the recce (in other words, before the rally even really started)? I believe that he wrote off the roll cage in the process, which automatically forces you to withdraw from the event.

Where did you hear this? WRC, Autosport, Mini never said this, I guess people care so little about Nobre they can't be bothered updating anyone on his progress.

And Loeb turning the wrong direction at a crest...such a surprising error for an experienced driver.

Post by **mario** » 30 Mar 2012, 09:50

kostas22 wrote:
mario wrote:
kostas22 wrote:My guess would be roadsweeping, being dragged along Paulo Nobre's poorly driven racing line, and driving in the rather slow Paulo Nobre's dust.

You do realise that Nobre withdrew from the event after crashing during the recce (in other words, before the rally even really started)? I believe that he wrote off the roll cage in the process, which automatically forces you to withdraw from the event.

Where did you hear this? WRC, Autosport, Mini never said this, I guess people care so little about Nobre they can't be bothered updating anyone on his progress.

And Loeb turning the wrong direction at a crest...such a surprising error for an experienced driver.

I think it was actually in Autosport where I saw that Nobre had withdrawn (they were talking about the running order and explaining why Nobre's name was missing from the list), but here is another article on the same topic. http://www.wrc.com/news/drivers-miss-ou ... ?fid=16351

As for Loeb turning the wrong way, it does seem odd for such an experienced driver, but his team principal mentions that there were no errors in the pace notes, and the co-driver seems to have given him the right instruction.

Citroen team principal Yves Matton confirmed Loeb's early bath and explained the unusual circumstances of the eight-time world champion's exit.
"They went off in a situation when the road turned on the top [of a crest], the road turned to the right and Sebastien turned to the left," said Matton. "The pace note was good, but he didn't follow the indication, just before the top the road was going a little bit to the left and we think he was looking more to the road and he didn't follow the note."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98461

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 30 Mar 2012, 09:56

Autosport.com wrote:but he won't be the last driver to select his position, the dubious honour going instead to Paulo Nobre who crashed his Mini off the road.

The Brazilian said: "I went off at slow speed. I had made a mistake earlier in the stage and this had distracted me."

Then this Autosport.com article leaves Paulo Nobre out of the running order altogether.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 30 Mar 2012, 10:01

I think it's weird that since I started saying Latvala would crash out, it is Loeb that's been crashing out... It is really weird. Nobre, I had never heard about him before. His money is probably impressive.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 30 Mar 2012, 10:34

DanielPT wrote: Nobre, I had never heard about him before. His money is probably impressive.

I hadn't before this year, but as he's in a Mini, and as I am a fan of the Mini brand (although not the Countryman - ridiculous model...), I noticed his name once or twice earlier this season.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 30 Mar 2012, 10:42

DanielPT wrote:I think it's weird that since I started saying Latvala would crash out, it is Loeb that's been crashing out... It is really weird. Nobre, I had never heard about him before. His money is probably impressive.

What surprises me is that (until this event) Daniel Oliveira was driving a Mini for Brazil World Rally Team, and countryman (geddit?) Nobre was also driving a Mini...for the Italians?

If BMW had any sense they should have structured their teams properly. Entering motorsport is about exposure, and they are getting zero with this messy organisational structure of the works/satellite teams. Dani Sordo drives for Prodrive, but this isn't Mini, they're privateers, or are they? A Portuguese-branded Italian racing team using British cars is representing a marque owned by a German company, one of the Brazilian drivers were at the Portugal team instead of the Brazil team, the Brazilian team has defected to Ford...storm in a teacup stuff for the average follower probably, but in my opinion a complete disaster from the blithering idiots in Munich.

I first noticed him back in 2010, doing a full PWRC season in a Lancer Evo X. At that time, I didn't realise quite how much money he had behind him, therefore I had no expectations for him to progress to WRC level.

As for Nobre himself, don't like him, I may not be a Paulista but I will follow Sao Paulo and despite Palmeiras until I die :evil:

(He is VP of the latter team).

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 30 Mar 2012, 13:18

This sequence of events is hilarious.

Comments before overnight break
News from SS5 the next day
News for SS6 the same day.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 30 Mar 2012, 14:23

I knew it! I just knew Latvala would bin it during the day (albeit in a rough muddy conditions) today! Hirvonen just needs to cruise to the finish.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 30 Mar 2012, 16:33

Apparently torrential showers and fog caused problems to organisers and today's afternoon stages were cancelled. Which is a bit strange because a couple hundred kilometres north is sunny and hot with no hint of rain whatsoever.

If tomorrow's day turns out to be not as bad, then it was indeed 'well' played by Ford...

Post by **mario** » 30 Mar 2012, 22:31

DanielPT wrote:Apparently torrential showers and fog caused problems to organisers and today's afternoon stages were cancelled. Which is a bit strange because a couple hundred kilometres north is sunny and hot with no hint of rain whatsoever.

If tomorrow's day turns out to be not as bad, then it was indeed 'well' played by Ford...

It was swings and roundabouts for Ford - their strategy worked in the earlier stages, and it has to be said that Novikov, whose initial running slot was 15th on the road, was taking a lot of time out of Hirvonen's lead (he took 12 seconds out of Hirvonen's lead over a stage 7 alone and has taken over 2nd place). To be honest, in conditions that are as bad as reported, it really looks like luck whether or not you make it to the end more than anything else, with drivers at either end of the running order crashing out.

Speaking of Hirvonen, he has been complaining about the decision by the organisers to cancel the final three stages today, saying that he felt that the drivers were travelling slowly enough for there to be no major risk. The organisers, however, have made it clear that the conditions meant that it would not have been possible for the medical crews to get to the cars within 10 minutes - the maximum time they are prepared to allow for medics to reach the scene of an accident - and with drivers likely to crash out, it was the safest thing to do. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98486

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 31 Mar 2012, 22:50

Results after Day 2

Yes, you did read right. Hirvonen is winning a rally in a Citroen :lol:

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 01 Apr 2012, 00:36

Wizzie wrote:Results after Day 2

Yes, you did read right. Hirvonen is winning a rally in a Citroen

What I find more surprising is that Yazeed Al Rahji is set to win the SWRC class. His only honours to date is a few wins in Baja rallies and the Middle East Rally Championship. He has never won anything at international level before. Last year he only finished one round of the WRC and retired from the rest, mostly due to crashing. But because Craig Breen and Hayden Paddon messed up in the woefully undersubscribed support series, he is leading by 8 minutes.

Post by **mario** » 01 Apr 2012, 09:18

Wizzie wrote:Results after Day 2

Yes, you did read right. Hirvonen is winning a rally in a Citroen

He has had it gifted to him on a plate though, with his three closest competitors (Loeb, Latvala and Solberg) all putting themselves out of contention, whilst his next closest rival, Ostberg, had to slow down yesterday because his sump guard was falling off.
One person who has benefited from the carnage is Ogier though - he's up to what looks like a reasonably secure 8th place.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 01 Apr 2012, 09:20

mario wrote:One person who has benefited from the carnage is Ogier though - he's up to what looks like a reasonably secure 8th place.

Holy crap, I completely forgot that the kid existed this year

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 01 Apr 2012, 13:47

Wizzie wrote:
mario wrote:One person who has benefited from the carnage is Ogier though - he's up to what looks like a reasonably secure 8th place.

Holy crap, I completely forgot that the kid existed this year

After the morning loop he was only 12s off Dennis Kuipers in 7th too, but he has a WRC spec Fiesta and has pulled away by around 5 seconds per stage in the afternoon. 8th it is for Ogier.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 01 Apr 2012, 22:04

Anyone else seen this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01fcncc/Madness_on_Wheels_Rallyings_Craziest_Years/

It's a documentary that was shown on BBC4 about Group B rallying in the 80s, I'm just about to watch it myself on iplayer, though I figured others might be interested too!

Post by **Londoner** » 01 Apr 2012, 22:35

AndreaModa wrote:Anyone else seen this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01fcncc/Madness_on_Wheels_Rallyings_Craziest_Years/

It's a documentary that was shown on BBC4 about Group B rallying in the 80s, I'm just about to watch it myself on iplayer, though I figured others might be interested too!

Group B rally cars were absolute monsters! Fantastic, if somewhat massively dangerous. I remember watching another Group B documentary on YouTube a couple of years ago, and you could see from a on-board camera just how mental the crowds were, and the speed of the car. It were a golden age for rally, and an immense specticle.

Of course, sadly the dark days of the 1986 rally season (a Ford RS200 crashing into the crowd killing three spectators at one rally and Henri Toivonen's fatal accident when his Lancia crashed and exploded into flames, leaving nothing but a spaceframe remaining) killed it off

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 01 Apr 2012, 22:54

Oh dear... Ostberg inherits the victory by what should be called 'default' in a crazy but brilliant rally. Myrvold shouldn't be too happy, though.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 01 Apr 2012, 23:01

DanielPT wrote:Oh dear... Ostberg inherits the victory by what should be called 'default' in a crazy but brilliant rally. Myrvold shouldn't be too happy, though.

Disastrous rally from a Finnish perspective - after their main nemesis for several years makes an extremely rare error and bins it, Latvala follows his usual route and crashes out as well (although this time he wasn't so much at fault), while Hirvonen gets disqualified for having an illegal car.

Oh well, I haven't actively followed the sport in years after it got into a boring Citroen vs. Ford battle.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 01 Apr 2012, 23:35

Solberg is now second in the championship, one point behind Loeb, and Ostberg is up to third overall. I highly approve of this.

TVING NORGE! :mrgreen:

Pieman · Post by **Pieman** » 02 Apr 2012, 00:47

This championship has now pretty much completely disappeared up its own backside.

Post by **mario** » 02 Apr 2012, 06:57

DanielPT wrote:Oh dear... Ostberg inherits the victory by what should be called 'default' in a crazy but brilliant rally. Myrvold shouldn't be too happy, though.

Further details have now been published in the FIA's technical report - the FIA have said that Citroen used a non-homologated clutch selection mechanism, and the clutch itself has a different part number on it to the one written on the entry form, indicating it is from a different batch.
As for the turbocharger, that is slightly less clear cut - the turbine wheel appears to very slightly exceed the specified limit of 54mm (by 0.02mm according to Autosport), although this is being remeasured because it is so close to the limits that the FIA gives for manufacturing tolerances. Even if this was discounted, though, the clutch mechanism is likely to remain a pressing matter. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98551

Nevertheless, Citroen have announced that they intend to appeal against Hirvonen's penalty, complaining that the clutch mechanism would not have given any advantage (the normal clutch selection mechanism fitted has been homologated with holes for a lighter part, whereas the piece fitted to Hirvonen's car did not have the holes drilled), and that the turbine wheel of the turbocharger was distorted by use in the rally. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98555

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 02 Apr 2012, 08:50

They have a case for the turbocompresser turbine wheel perhaps, but the non-homologated clutch? I don't think so. They might as well throw the whole concept of homologation out of the window if they repeal Hirvonen's exclusion on the grounds of it "not being fair" as Yves Matton said.

Post by **mario** » 02 Apr 2012, 10:17

kostas22 wrote:They have a case for the turbocompresser turbine wheel perhaps, but the non-homologated clutch? I don't think so. They might as well throw the whole concept of homologation out of the window if they repeal Hirvonen's exclusion on the grounds of it "not being fair" as Yves Matton said.

For the turbine, I'd say that they probably stand a decent chance of having that charge withdrawn - the deviation from the permitted size should be within the tolerance band the FIA allows for manufacturing errors, plus the turbocharger is a standardised unit supplied by Garrett and should (in theory) be identical for each and every car. As for the clutch selection mechanism, they'll probably struggle there - the argument they have put forward is that there have been no changes to the clutch selection mechanism apart from the absence of strategically drilled holes to make the parts lighter.
I agree, though, that they are unlikely to see a change of heart by the FIA over the non-homologated clutch - functionally it may be the same, but structurally it is not the same. Cynically, such a decision does also help Solberg close up on Loeb, and it isn't as if the FIA has sometimes let the desire for a more "exciting" championship cloud its judgement in the past...

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 03 Apr 2012, 11:11

My respect for Ostberg has increased substantially

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 03 Apr 2012, 12:29

Malcolm Wilson, Ford Team Principal wrote:Jari did actually offer [to step down as number one]. He said he accepted that maybe the time had come [for a change of tactic]. But the way out of this is to give him as much support as I possibly can - and that's what I intend to do. For me, he's the only driver in a straight fight who can take the fight to Sebastien and beat him. And, for us to win championships, we have to win rallies.

This is why Ford is never going to win the championship this year. I think Wilson has completely lost the plot if he believes this, and has also completely forgotten rally history in the process - the last champion before Loeb went on his 8 title streak was PETTER SOLBERG. If I was at Ford I would have issued an ultimatum to M-Sport seasons ago - sack Wilson, or at least change his position in the company - or they would switch to another constructor.

It is a shame for Jari he is effectively going to become the scapegoat for Ford's inevitable failure to win anything again, he told the team principal Solberg should rightly be the number one driver and has been told instead to somehow turn around a 38 point gap to Loeb. Utter, utter stupidity.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 03 Apr 2012, 12:49

kostas22 wrote:
Malcolm Wilson, Ford Team Principal wrote:Jari did actually offer [to step down as number one]. He said he accepted that maybe the time had come [for a change of tactic]. But the way out of this is to give him as much support as I possibly can - and that's what I intend to do. For me, he's the only driver in a straight fight who can take the fight to Sebastien and beat him. And, for us to win championships, we have to win rallies.

This is why Ford is never going to win the championship this year. I think Wilson has completely lost the plot if he believes this, and has also completely forgotten rally history in the process - the last champion before Loeb went on his 8 title streak was PETTER SOLBERG. If I was at Ford I would have issued an ultimatum to M-Sport seasons ago - sack Wilson, or at least change his position in the company - or they would switch to another constructor.

It is a shame for Jari he is effectively going to become the scapegoat for Ford's inevitable failure to win anything again, he told the team principal Solberg should rightly be the number one driver and has been told instead to somehow turn around a 38 point gap to Loeb. Utter, utter stupidity.

Go home, Malcolm Wilson!

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 03 Apr 2012, 14:32

That's monumentally daft from Wilson. Loeb might be a bloody good rally driver but it seems that both Mini and Ford are determined to just hand him and Citroen another championship by being completely incompetent. It's a shame because the potential to have three decent manufacturers all going at it for both titles is evaporating faster than Latvala crashing out of rallies!

Post by **mario** » 03 Apr 2012, 22:10

kostas22 wrote:
Malcolm Wilson, Ford Team Principal wrote:Jari did actually offer [to step down as number one]. He said he accepted that maybe the time had come [for a change of tactic]. But the way out of this is to give him as much support as I possibly can - and that's what I intend to do. For me, he's the only driver in a straight fight who can take the fight to Sebastien and beat him. And, for us to win championships, we have to win rallies.

This is why Ford is never going to win the championship this year. I think Wilson has completely lost the plot if he believes this, and has also completely forgotten rally history in the process - the last champion before Loeb went on his 8 title streak was PETTER SOLBERG. If I was at Ford I would have issued an ultimatum to M-Sport seasons ago - sack Wilson, or at least change his position in the company - or they would switch to another constructor.

It is a shame for Jari he is effectively going to become the scapegoat for Ford's inevitable failure to win anything again, he told the team principal Solberg should rightly be the number one driver and has been told instead to somehow turn around a 38 point gap to Loeb. Utter, utter stupidity.

I have to agree there - Wilson's policy could result in the worst result possible. He rather publicly putting Latvala under a lot of pressure to win rallies at a time when Latvala's confidence will almost certainly have fallen, not to mention effectively humiliating Solberg by saying he is not capable of beating Loeb.

Realistically, at this point in the championship you have to acknowledge that Solberg has the far stronger points position, and chance of winning the title, than Latvala. Latvala has been far too erratic in the opening rounds, whereas at least Solberg has kept picking up points along the way, and it isn't as if Solberg wasn't competitive last year either (up until the last three rounds of last years rally championship he was within 10 points of Latvala). With Loeb and Citroen looking as strong as ever, Ford are arguably throwing away their best chance to catch up - and it isn't the first time that has been said either...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 13 Apr 2012, 16:19

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98781

Latvala is out for Rally Argentina with a broken collarbone. SURELY now Solberg will be given number one status, and Mads Ostberg drafted in to the works team to replace Latvala in Argentina. Ostberg will likely be very desperate for this to happen, as according to him, his Adapta customer team participating in Rally Argentina is using up 20% of their entire season budget. With a works seat, he can tag along with the M-Sport people and make sure he completes the rest of the season as a privateer.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 13 Apr 2012, 16:38

Whilst not wanting to wish bad things on Latvala, this could quite possibly be the best thing that's happened to Ford this season.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 13 Apr 2012, 16:52

I meant to post a link to that story earlier but forgot. Latvala does now seem as accident-prone outside of the rally car as he does in it. If this means that Petter Solberg gets the number 1 driver role at Ford, or at least equal number 1 status, then it is a positive, sadly for Jari-Matti. We know that Petter is capable of delivering over a season - he is the most recent champion if you take Loeb out of the equation!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 14 Apr 2012, 20:36

Malcolm Wilson, Ford Team Principal, wrote:Now we have taken the decision that it’s best for [Latvala] to miss Argentina so he’s 100 per cent fit for the Acropolis, one of the most difficult rallies in the championship, we will look at his replacement for Argentina although we’re not currently in a position to make an announcement until Monday at the earliest. Finding a replacement won’t be an issue [in terms of driver availability] but you have to remember a driver of Jari’s ability is very hard to replace.

Again, I have to disagree with Wilson here. He may have inherited his victory in Portugal, but Ostberg has shown genuine speed so far this year. Tanak has potential but needs far more seat time in the Fiesta to fulfil it, the same problem team-mate Evgeny Novikov has, and Henning Solberg does not have the natural talent to fill the void. Ford's former go-to driver for deputising, Per-Gunnar Andersson, is contracted to Proton this year which rules him out, however there are a couple of other drivers who could potentially step-in. I don't know if Kris Meeke has officially terminated his contract with Mini yet or not, but he might as well if he hasn't already, as it looks certian he will get zero seat time this season. However, I doubt he would do any better than Ostberg.

I think the choice is a complete no-brainer. There is one slight problem with this however - Adapta Ford will run with manufacturer status in Argentina, meaning they are now obliged to race or face disqualification from the championship. If Ostberg joins Ford WRT then Adapta will need a replacement. I don't think Eyvind Brynildsen is busy on the weekend of the rally but I can't be sure, he seems the most logical replacement. If he doesn't have any budget to compete however, there could be a potential stumbling block here.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 17 Apr 2012, 10:23

Sordo replaces Latvala for Argentina.

At least it means that the car won't end up as a bag of bits for once :lol:

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 17 Apr 2012, 10:41

I'm surprised Prodrive allowed Sordo to jump ship, even temporarily. Interestingly, Eliseo Salazar will be the only driver in a Prodrive Mini for Argentina

Elsewhere, it is the Rally 1000 Miglia this weekend, and ERC round with works Proton SWRC driver Giandomenico Basso and works Skoda IRC driver Juho Hanninen competing along with Italian rally legend Paolo Andreucci.

Pieman · Post by **Pieman** » 17 Apr 2012, 15:54

Wizzie wrote:Sordo replaces Latvala for Argentina.

Has anyone heard from Kris Meeke lately, or has he hung himself? He is on the sidelines, Sordo is already in one of the seats Kris should be in...and then they go and do this.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 17 Apr 2012, 16:23

kostas22 wrote:
Malcolm Wilson, Ford Team Principal, wrote:Now we have taken the decision that it’s best for [Latvala] to miss Argentina so he’s 100 per cent fit for the Acropolis, one of the most difficult rallies in the championship, we will look at his replacement for Argentina although we’re not currently in a position to make an announcement until Monday at the earliest. Finding a replacement won’t be an issue [in terms of driver availability] but you have to remember a driver of Jari’s ability is very hard to replace.

Again, I have to disagree with Wilson here. He may have inherited his victory in Portugal, but Ostberg has shown genuine speed so far this year. Tanak has potential but needs far more seat time in the Fiesta to fulfil it, the same problem team-mate Evgeny Novikov has, and Henning Solberg does not have the natural talent to fill the void. Ford's former go-to driver for deputising, Per-Gunnar Andersson, is contracted to Proton this year which rules him out, however there are a couple of other drivers who could potentially step-in. I don't know if Kris Meeke has officially terminated his contract with Mini yet or not, but he might as well if he hasn't already, as it looks certian he will get zero seat time this season. However, I doubt he would do any better than Ostberg.

I think the choice is a complete no-brainer. There is one slight problem with this however - Adapta Ford will run with manufacturer status in Argentina, meaning they are now obliged to race or face disqualification from the championship. If Ostberg joins Ford WRT then Adapta will need a replacement. I don't think Eyvind Brynildsen is busy on the weekend of the rally but I can't be sure, he seems the most logical replacement. If he doesn't have any budget to compete however, there could be a potential stumbling block here.

From that quote I deduce that Ford can now be known as "Rallying Red Bull" and Malcom Wilson has probably coloured his hair to look more like Christian Horner. Latvala number 1 driver? What a bunch of ...