F1 The Killer Years

[jpm]

I don't know if anyone managed to catch BBC4's documentary about the lives lost in the early 60s and 70s, but I felt it was really rather good. It finished with some very grim footage of David Purley trying to to righ the car of Roger Williamson, while the Dutch marshals stood doing nothing, despite Purley gettig increasingly agitated. Some big problems were that they missed the deaths of Cevert and Tom Pryce, the former which finally convinced Sir Jackie to quit, and the latter being one of the worst cockups in memory.

But overall, it got me thinking. Out of all the drivers F1 has lost over the years, including the likes of Frolain Gonzalez and Jean Behra from the 50s, right up to Villenuerve, Pironi, de Angelis and Senna in the 80s and 90s, who would have gone on to make the biggest mark in the history books? I know for instance that Jim Clark would have won many, manymore titles, and that Ronnie Peterson would surely have been a WDC. What does the F1 Rejects community think?

[Aerospeed]

G. Villeneuve becomes WDC

Elio de Angelis becomes a better driver and drives for Ferrari (but doesn't win a championship, though he does help Ferrari win the WCC in 1990 with Alain Prost)

And Ayrton Senna, if I remember what Klon said, becomes a pundit on F1 Magazine

[DOSBoot]

I always thought Peter Revson had potential. Granted, his win at Silverstone was from attrition, and his other win in Canada was from a lap gain on a saftey car, but he had great talent nontheless, and he did finish fifth in the drivers championship that year. I'm sure had he not been killed at Kyalami in 1974, I think he might have won more races. I'm not sure if he would have won a championship, but I think he would have had a great F1 career.

[fjackdaw]

Roger Williamson is often touted as a lost future world champion. One of the most poignant things I've seen is an old (Autosport?) 'review of the year' annual from 1972 which touted Roger - reigning Formula 3 champion - as the big name to watch for 1973. Very sad.

[dr-baker]

... that they missed the deaths of Cevert and Tom Pryce, the former which finally convinced Sir Jackie to quit,...

I have read in several places that Jackie Stewart actually decided at the start of 1973 that he was going to retire of the season, but only confided this decision to Ken Tyrrell. He had not informed his wife, Helen. This means that after the Watkins Glen race, Cevert was going to become the number one driver at Tyrrell, a fact that he would never discover. Thus, it was not Cevert's death that forced Jackie's hand. What did happen, though, was that Jackie withdrew from the Grand Prix, and thus only ever started 99 GPs, not 100, as that race would have been Jackie's 100th and last.

[AdrianSutil]

I did watch this documentary the other day. It amazed me how much some circuit officials refused to help the GPDA when it came to track safety. I was hoping they wouldn't show the Roger Williamson death, as I've seen it before and it's an awful piece of footage to watch. Apparantly, Williamson was screaming inside the cockpit whilst Purley was trying to save his friend.

Williamson no doubt, was a big prospect. It was only his second race and was already being touted as a future WDC.



Forgot to add, it's the first time I've seentheJo Schlessler crash. The fire caused by the magnesium bodied Honda was incredible, how they allowed it to race is beyond me.

[tommykl]

Someone I saw as a potential multiple-race winner was Piers Courage. All he needed was a car worthy of his talent.

Also, José Froilan Gonzalez is still alive and well at 87

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

whilst Purley was trying to save his friend.

The thing is, they weren't friends. In fact, they barely knew each other, which only makes the whole thing more gut-wrenching.

I'm not entirely sure what would have happened if Francois hadn't had his crash at The Glen. While there's no doubt that he was on par and occasionally better than Jackie, I'm not sure he could have helped develop the future Tyrrells in the way Jackie did. I do, however, believe that Francois would have had a very good shot at the 1974 title, considering the Tyrrell wasn't too far from the McLaren. The fact is, I do rate Patrick Depailler and Jody Scheckter pretty highly, and I don't think they are too far away from Francois, so at the very most, Francois would have perhaps notched a few more wins and podiums, but would have eventually ended up where the team ended up.

The 1986 Brabham was by all means a problem maker. de Angelis may have been able to sneak another point or two in, but I don't think much was possible for the rest of the year. He probably would have stayed at Brabham for 1987, outperforming de Cesaris most of the time, and scoring a few more points. With MRD's withdrawal in 88', there aren't many places I would put him. The chances here are Tyrrell, Zakspeed, March, Arrows and Ligier. I think Zakspeed can be crossed out, considering their awful performances prior to the year. Arrows maybe not, considering Cheever was essential towards the USFG and Megatron sponsorship, while Warwick was doing a solid job. Ligier was in utter chaos, so that leaves March and Tyrrell. If he had gone to March, he would have been neck and neck with Capelli. Your guess is as good as mine regarding who would come out victorious. If he had gone to Tyrrell, then all I can say is I don't think he would have DNQ'd.

Pironi would have won 1982, simple as that. But I think his interest in the sport would have waned in the same fashion as Raikkonen, and he probably would have moved somewhere else after a year or two. Considering it wasn't his crash that killed him, I guess the hang-gliding accident would have still occurred, sadly. Nico Rosberg may have had a tougher time getting into F1, considering his dad wasn't a champion. Lest we forget, Rosberg wasn't exactly typecast as a driver with fantastic raw speed. Keke may have had a hard time after 1982, and may have retired much earlier, or may have descended into driving for midfield teams.

Regarding Senna, I've said this in previous times. He would have too erratic to take the fight to Schumacher in the way Damon did. (For the newer members out there, I am in no way a Schumi fan. Rosemeyer and Bellof ftw.) But now that I think of it, had he won San Marino, and gone on the same path Hill did, he would have won the title rather convincingly. There probably would have been no need for Schumacher's antics in Adelaide, and Schumi's identity as a man probably would have been preserved until a certain day in 1997... Considering Williams' superiority in 1995, Senna probably would have breezed it. Reaching 5 titles, he probably would have retired. Considering his interest in Indy during the early 90s, there is a chance that he may have jumped over the Atlantic, but the problem here is 'The Split'. I'm pretty sure, if anything, he would have wanted to drive in the Indy 500, but racing in the IRL probably would damage his image a bit too much for comfort. Still, he's Senna. He's a racer, not a bloody politician.

I honestly doubt Peterson's ability to win the WDC. I think that even without the accident in Italy, Andretti's title was sealed. Although on paper 1979 was a year of parity, the Ferraris were in good control of both championships. By 1980, Lotus were already on the decline, and I don't know where he could have ended up.

Jim Clark? Well, I dunno. Quite frankly, my motorsport knowledge is only good beginning from the mid-80s onwards.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Lest we forget, Rosberg wasn't exactly typecast as a driver with fantastic raw speed. Keke may have had a hard time after 1982, and may have retired much earlier, or may have descended into driving for midfield teams.

Interestingly enough I discovered earlier today through F1 Fanatic that Keke Rosberg was originally EJ's first choice to replace Gachot for Belgium

[cretoxyrhina]

whilst Purley was trying to save his friend.

I honestly doubt Peterson's ability to win the WDC. I think that even without the accident in Italy, Andretti's title was sealed. Although on paper 1979 was a year of parity, the Ferraris were in good control of both championships. By 1980, Lotus were already on the decline, and I don't know where he could have ended up.

If I understand correctly what happened at that time, Peterson will drive for McLaren in 1979. Not very sure who will be replaced by him, but I'm totally sure he won't win the WDC until 1982, if possible.

[jpm]

Pironi would have won 1982, simple as that. But I think his interest in the sport would have waned in the same fashion as Raikkonen, and he probably would have moved somewhere else after a year or two. Considering it wasn't his crash that killed him, I guess the hang-gliding accident would have still occurred, sadly.

Actually Pironi was killed in a power-boat crash, which he only went into racing after he could'nt get ay competitive drives for 1986 (he was thought too risky a prospect). I believe I've missed two off my list; Patrick Depallier, and Steffan Belloff. With a better car, Belloff would have been up there for certain, while Depallier was clearly one of the greatest of the late 70s/ early 80s.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

How far afield do you want to go to look at the issue. Pironi, Clark, Bellof weren't killed in F1 cars. How many others were afflicted in a similar way? Or even farther afield than that...How far would Embassy Hill Racing have gone if not for Graham Hill's death and the death of many important members of his team in a plane crash?

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Actually Pironi was killed in a power-boat crash, which he only went into racing after he could'nt get ay competitive drives for 1986 (he was thought too risky a prospect). I believe I've missed two off my list; Patrick Depallier, and Steffan Belloff. With a better car, Belloff would have been up there for certain, while Depallier was clearly one of the greatest of the late 70s/ early 80s.

Well, I can't remember, really.

Regarding Bellof....

I think I've already written my points here before, let me see if I can find them.

EDIT:

In 1986, he would have gotten that Ferrari drive. He would have been challenging Senna for 4th that year, I think. In 1987, I think he could have been challenging Senna once more, this time for third. But the Ferrari wasn't very reliable, so I think he would have retired from at least half the races, thus putting him, 6th? In 1988, he would definitely have finished third. In 1989, I personally think Williams would have signed him instead of Boutsen. Bellof gets involved in a three way conflict between Prost and Senna. Unfortunately, the Williams isn't as good as the McLaren, and he isn't able to keep up with them at some tracks. Bellof would probably have gotten into the fight in 1990, though the Williams was not as close in terms of performance. In 1991, Mansell retires, and goes off to IndyCar. That same year, Bellof challenges Senna until the very end, and is eventually let down by reliability. In 1992, he dominates the championship, and wins the title once more in 1993. Prost refuses to join Williams due to Bellof's presence, for fear of another Senna scenario. To the shock of the paddock, Williams swap Bellof for Senna. Brundle doesn't get the McLaren seat. Bellof comes third in the championship. Tired of F1, he moves to IndyCar, with Chip Ganassi. On road courses (as you like to call them), he dominates, but isn't exactly reliable. This, coupled with his inability to come to grips with ovals, means Villeneuve narrowly beats him to the title. He becomes champion in 1996, winning 8 out of 16 races, including 2 ovals. In 1997, he loses out to Zanardi after a massive crash at the Marlboro 500. He tries his luck in 1998, but the crash has taken a lot from him, and finishes the season with just 1 win and 3 3rds. He retires soon after.

I throughly admit that at the time of writing, my brain was still in the process of collecting information. I don't really see the Ferrari being able to keep a consistent challenge to Lotus in 86' nowadays (2010 I think), and in 1987, the performance and reliability only kicked in at the end of the year. I think the Williams scenario is possible, but I think I'll laugh at myself for saying he won't come to grip with the ovals. I mean, maybe, but still, you will never know!

If I find the motivation, I'll write another alternative history on Bellof, perhaps as in depth as the Minardi one.

[jpm]

How far afield do you want to go to look at the issue. Pironi, Clark, Bellof weren't killed in F1 cars. How many others were afflicted in a similar way? Or even farther afield than that...How far would Embassy Hill Racing have gone if not for Graham Hill's death and the death of many important members of his team in a plane crash?

Exactly, its endless. There are so many what if's about our great sport, and I just find its a really interesting topic for debate.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

How far afield do you want to go to look at the issue. Pironi, Clark, Bellof weren't killed in F1 cars. How many others were afflicted in a similar way? Or even farther afield than that...How far would Embassy Hill Racing have gone if not for Graham Hill's death and the death of many important members of his team in a plane crash?

Exactly, its endless. There are so many what if's about our great sport, and I just find its a really interesting topic for debate.

Actually, I know nothing about Embassy Hill. Would anybody like to take a shot at what would have happened?

[eagleash]

How far afield do you want to go to look at the issue. Pironi, Clark, Bellof weren't killed in F1 cars. How many others were afflicted in a similar way? Or even farther afield than that...How far would Embassy Hill Racing have gone if not for Graham Hill's death and the death of many important members of his team in a plane crash?

Exactly, its endless. There are so many what if's about our great sport, and I just find its a really interesting topic for debate.

Actually, I know nothing about Embassy Hill. Would anybody like to take a shot at what would have happened?

They had a promising driver in Brise, but Graham was no Ken Tyrrell or Frank Williams & I feel the team would have have been unlikely to survive much past the late 70s.

Upshot. JV might have won the title in 1996 too...

[dr-baker]

Actually, I know nothing about Embassy Hill. Would anybody like to take a shot at what would have happened?

They had a promising driver in Brise, but Graham was no Ken Tyrrell or Frank Williams & I feel the team would have have been unlikely to survive much past the late 70s.

Upshot. JV might have won the title in 1996 too...

So what would have stopped Damon entering the sport, who would have been Senna's teammate in 1994 and how well would they have done post-Imola, and who would Villeneuve have beaten in 1996 (Frentzen?)?

[eagleash]

Actually, I know nothing about Embassy Hill. Would anybody like to take a shot at what would have happened?

They had a promising driver in Brise, but Graham was no Ken Tyrrell or Frank Williams & I feel the team would have have been unlikely to survive much past the late 70s.

Upshot. JV might have won the title in 1996 too...

So what would have stopped Damon entering the sport, who would have been Senna's teammate in 1994 and how well would they have done post-Imola, and who would Villeneuve have beaten in 1996 (Frentzen?)?

Chances are Damon would have involved himself in whatever projects his Father undertook. This may not have led to him driving for a top team.......&........ DC? About the same?