Your most controversial F1 innovation?

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Aerospeed
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Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Aerospeed »

I'm just curious to see what everyone's most controversial innovation made in F1. It could be anything that gave the team a clear advantage that made everyone mad and as a result they tried to get it banned.

My obvious choice would be the Brabham Fan Car - it was so innovative that everyone wanted it banned right from the get-go, and the fact that it won the only race it competed in makes it legendary.
The six-wheeled Tyrrell was also innovative, but I wouldn't call it a clear advantage since the tyre manufacturers had to make more tyres, the car suffered from understeer, and it only won one race.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Jocke1 »

Aerospeed wrote: It could be anything that gave the team a clear advantage that made everyone mad and as a result they tried to get it banned.

Perhaps not a full-on advantage, but in the modern era I absolutely loved what Arrows and Jordan did.

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That Arrows in the photo is Verstappen unfortunately, I happen to have the A22 minichamps 1:43 model of Bernoldi, complete with "the Monaco wing" and all (funny how they thought it was worth a model).
Not only is the Arrows A22 one of the most beautiful F1 cars ever in my opinion (without the Monaco wing),
but Bernoldi's performance during the '01 Monaco weekend is also one of my favorite moments of all time to this day.

He ran that extra goofy looking wing, like Verstappen, during practice like a boss. And then held Coulthard behind him for almost 40 laps. Flawless under pressure, beautiful
defensive driving and one of the best trolling performances I have ever seen. And he had every right.
And what I almost love even more is how Bernoldi stood up for himself afterwards.

Ron Dennis wanted to kill him, Coulthard wanted to kill him, Verstappen said he was the worst teammate he had ever had etc etc..
And the rookie Bernoldi just brushed it off his shoulder and moved on.
Had it been today he would have scored 2 points in that race! Albeit two laps down, but that is beside the point.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by dr-baker »

Aerospeed wrote:The six-wheeled Tyrrell was also innovative, but I wouldn't call it a clear advantage since the tyre manufacturers had to make more tyres, the car suffered from understeer, and it only won one race.

It was innovative, sure, but not exactly controversial as the Brabham fan car was. And it was something that Williams and March tried to copy (albeit with four wheels at the rear rather than the front). It certainly grabbed people's attention. But I don't remember people calling for the car to be banned...
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Turbogirl »

This is the first "innovative" and controversial design I every saw as a F1 fan, 1995 being my first year as a regular viewer. You might disagree with me on the controversial part, but it's still one of the strangest designs in F1 history. So many people told me how butt ugly this car is, yet I can't turn my eyes from it. :P

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And yes, that's Bernd Schneider testing the car. An official F1 Reject in a rather rejectful car (although good enough to score some podiums).
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by AndreaModa »

The X Wings have to go down as a fairly controversial innovation, at least in my eyes. Bizarre idea, much like those Monaco winglets above.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by mario »

dr-baker wrote:
Aerospeed wrote:The six-wheeled Tyrrell was also innovative, but I wouldn't call it a clear advantage since the tyre manufacturers had to make more tyres, the car suffered from understeer, and it only won one race.

It was innovative, sure, but not exactly controversial as the Brabham fan car was. And it was something that Williams and March tried to copy (albeit with four wheels at the rear rather than the front). It certainly grabbed people's attention. But I don't remember people calling for the car to be banned...

I believe that Chapman was actively lobbying behind the scenes for the fan car to be banned, in part because he knew that presented a major threat to Lotus and the temporary advantage they had gained from being the first to develop a ground effect car.
Officially, I understand that the 'fan car' wasn't formally banned however - Bernie withdrew the car from competition before it could be banned, in part because it risked breaking up FOCA at a time when they were making headway against FISA.

Jocke1 wrote:
Aerospeed wrote: It could be anything that gave the team a clear advantage that made everyone mad and as a result they tried to get it banned.

Perhaps not a full-on advantage, but in the modern era I absolutely loved what Arrows and Jordan did.

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As an interesting twist of fate, it wasn't the first time that Arrows had done that either - they had tried out a conceptually similar design all the way back in a test at Paul Ricard in 1982:
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In that case, it is even more extreme as that design must have blocked a pretty substantial portion of the drivers forward view.

I suppose that, in my case, I would probably saw that some of the more controversial designs over the years would be some of those that really risked the lives of the drivers. With that in mind, I would probably cite Ferrari's 312B - although most of the design was conventional, what was controversial was that, IIRC, the drivers feet were ahead of the front axle line - it gave a slight aerodynamic and centre of gravity benefit, but also significantly increased the chances of a driver suffering from severe leg injuries in a head on collision. It was a decision that was criticised at the time, but other designers eventually came to copy because of the slight performance benefit, even though it significantly raised the risks for the drivers in a crash.
Unfortunately, that philosophy proved to be hard to shift - it wasn't until 1988 that the rules were changed to force the designers to put the drivers feet behind the front axle line, by which time several drivers had been severely injured (Brundle) or had their careers ended (Laffite) as a direct consequence of that school of thought.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by watka »

Two cars that were controversial because they were downright dangerous.


Firstly, the high-wing Lotus 49B. High wings were first introduced by Lotus at the 1968 Monaco Grand Prix when aerodynamics were beginning to play their part on the sport. They certainly did their job and making the cars faster but it made them far more dangerous. By 1969, every car on the grid had them, but Jack Brabham's rear wing failed at the 1969 South African Grand Prix, giving a clear warning to teams.

Whilst most teams went about reinforcing their rear wings to prevent failures, Colin Chapman ignored the perils and built his taller and out of ever more lighter materials to maintain his cars' advantage over the rest of the field. This was despite Jochen Rindt's protestation that the car was safe. Needless to say that the Spanish Grand Prix ended like this for Jochen Rindt and Graham Hill:

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True, all of the teams continued to use the high rear wings going into the next race (before they were banned), but Lotus clearly never had any intention of trying to make the device safe.


Secondly, the Honda RA302. Outdoubtedly innovate, it was the first car to have an air-cooled engine (rather than a water-cooled engine) and also had a very forward cockpit position for its time in order to improve weight distribution. However it is most famous for having a magnesium chassis.

Now a quick look at the periodic table shows you why magnesium was chosen, its atomic mass is very low therefore making it a light material to work with (especially considering the heavy engines Honda were working with). However another key property, i.e. that it is an alkali earth metal, was ignored. In other words, it can burst into flames quite easily.

John Surtees labelled it a death-trap and wouldn't drive it. Jo Schlesser took the wheel instead and the car's very first race, the 1968 French Grand Prix, ended tragically. If you thought Niki Lauda's crash was bad in terms of the fire, then compare this to Schlesser's:

Image


Thank goodness we no longer live in these times.

There's an interesting article on the Honda at F1 Technical btw
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Backmarker »

Personally my favourites are Williams' Continually Variable Transmission (banned before it was raced); Renault's tuned mass dampers; McLaren's brake steering; McLaren's F-Duct (really liked this simple but effective workaround); Enstone's reactive ride height (banned before it was raced?)
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Turbogirl »

Let's not forget the double rear wing Ferrari once sported. I have no idea if it improved the car in any way, but it got banned by the FIA, as far as I know. I believe it had something to do with the fact, that the supposed aerodynamical effect of these two wings was the same as having one overly long rear wing. Again, no idea if this concept really worked the way it was intended...

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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by midgrid »

Regarding high front wings, McLaren also tried one out in 1977:

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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Turbogirl »

Alright, my last one for today, I promise. But I'm surprised no one brought this one up yet, although we're all about wings at the moment.

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The Kauhsen WK1. Innovative? Yes. Controversial? Well, Niki Lauda said to Kauhsen after seeing this car: "Your idea can't work. If it did, everyone else would be an idiot". :lol:
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

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Turbogirl wrote:Let's not forget the double rear wing Ferrari once sported. I have no idea if it improved the car in any way, but it got banned by the FIA, as far as I know. I believe it had something to do with the fact, that the supposed aerodynamical effect of these two wings was the same as having one overly long rear wing. Again, no idea if this concept really worked the way it was intended...

Image

The double rear wing was an attempt to find a way around the maximum rear wing width. I think there was no rule that the rear wing had to be in the centre of the car, so Ferrari had the idea to build two rear wings, and the idea was indeed to create the effect of one very large wing.The FIA had a different interpretation of the rules, and it got banned.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by good_Ralf »

Gilles Villeneuve raced with the double rear wing at Long Beach in 1982. He qualified 7th, finished 3rd after a spin (or two) in the race and was then DSQed.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by mario »

pi314159 wrote:
Turbogirl wrote:Let's not forget the double rear wing Ferrari once sported. I have no idea if it improved the car in any way, but it got banned by the FIA, as far as I know. I believe it had something to do with the fact, that the supposed aerodynamical effect of these two wings was the same as having one overly long rear wing. Again, no idea if this concept really worked the way it was intended...

Image

The double rear wing was an attempt to find a way around the maximum rear wing width. I think there was no rule that the rear wing had to be in the centre of the car, so Ferrari had the idea to build two rear wings, and the idea was indeed to create the effect of one very large wing.The FIA had a different interpretation of the rules, and it got banned.

It was more than just that though - it was also a major political gesture by Ferrari towards the garagistes and the way that several of them were abusing the regulations beyond what was though acceptable (the "water cooled brakes" being the point of debate at the time).

You are right that the regulations at the time did allow for two rear wing elements to be used, but didn't specify that they had to be in line, as it were, hence the unusual arrangement that allowed the two wings to work more like one larger wing and to circumvent the restriction on rear wing width. The point of abusing the restrictions on the width of the rear wing was essentially a statement by Ferrari to outfits like Tyrrell, Williams etc. that if those outfits were prepared to abuse the rules to that extent, then Ferrari was prepared to bend the rules even further.
In essence, the car was made in the knowledge that it would almost certainly be protested and Tyrrell promptly protested in order to get Gilles disqualified to bump Alboreto up a place (Tyrrell had also, I believe, protested Williams and Brabham in the Brazilian GP over the "water cooled brakes" fiasco).
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by ibsey »

mario wrote:In essence, the car was made in the knowledge that it would almost certainly be protested and Tyrrell promptly protested in order to get Gilles disqualified to bump Alboreto up a place (Tyrrell had also, I believe, protested Williams and Brabham in the Brazilian GP over the "water cooled brakes" fiasco).


Great post as ever Mario. If I recall correctly according to Christopher Hilton’s 1982 book, a little known fact about the “water cooled brakes” fiasco was that John Watson’s Mclaren was also running them. Yet for some reason he was allowed to keep his inherited 2nd position at Brazil. Presumably because at the start of the year no-body thought of ‘Wattie’ being a serious championship contender.

There is a few I can think off to add here of the top of my head the Lotus 88, the trick suspension that Brabham had used in Argentina 1981 and Tyrell’s water ballast thingy in 1984.


Backmarker wrote:Enstone's reactive ride height (banned before it was raced?)


IIRC M Schumi had to press a green button on his steering wheel whenever got was on a straight (clearly visible whenever there was an onboard camera) the car would do something to dump drag and give him a few extra miles an hour. Also am I correct in thinking that Benetton tried some sort of 4 wheel steer system in testing that year as well? (I don’t have the time these days to look into it any further).

good_Ralf wrote:Gilles Villeneuve raced with the double rear wing at Long Beach in 1982. He qualified 7th, finished 3rd after a spin (or two) in the race and was then DSQed.


...and also had a amazing, but very fair, scrap with Keke Rosberg. IMO that fight was up there with Dijon 1979 as the best F1 has ever seen. Turbo vs Cossie at its finest :P From what I heard their Formula Atlantic fights were just as good.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by AndreaModa »

ibsey wrote:
Backmarker wrote:Enstone's reactive ride height (banned before it was raced?)


IIRC M Schumi had to press a green button on his steering wheel whenever got was on a straight (clearly visible whenever there was an onboard camera) the car would do something to dump drag and give him a few extra miles an hour. Also am I correct in thinking that Benetton tried some sort of 4 wheel steer system in testing that year as well? (I don’t have the time these days to look into it any further).


Correct, right at the end of 1993, though I don't think they ever perfected it enough to actually bring it to a race, or maybe it was banned before they could?
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by dr-baker »

Backmarker wrote:Personally my favourites are Williams' Continually Variable Transmission (banned before it was raced)

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AndreaModa wrote:
ibsey wrote: Also am I correct in thinking that Benetton tried some sort of 4 wheel steer system in testing that year as well? (I don’t have the time these days to look into it any further).


Correct, right at the end of 1993, though I don't think they ever perfected it enough to actually bring it to a race, or maybe it was banned before they could?

Image

Post-Suzuka (where Senna and Irvine has their 'little disagreement'...):

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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by watka »

ibsey wrote:
mario wrote:In essence, the car was made in the knowledge that it would almost certainly be protested and Tyrrell promptly protested in order to get Gilles disqualified to bump Alboreto up a place (Tyrrell had also, I believe, protested Williams and Brabham in the Brazilian GP over the "water cooled brakes" fiasco).


Great post as ever Mario. If I recall correctly according to Christopher Hilton’s 1982 book, a little known fact about the “water cooled brakes” fiasco was that John Watson’s Mclaren was also running them. Yet for some reason he was allowed to keep his inherited 2nd position at Brazil. Presumably because at the start of the year no-body thought of ‘Wattie’ being a serious championship contender.

There is a few I can think off to add here of the top of my head the Lotus 88, the trick suspension that Brabham had used in Argentina 1981 and Tyrell’s water ballast thingy in 1984.


Backmarker wrote:Enstone's reactive ride height (banned before it was raced?)


IIRC M Schumi had to press a green button on his steering wheel whenever got was on a straight (clearly visible whenever there was an onboard camera) the car would do something to dump drag and give him a few extra miles an hour. Also am I correct in thinking that Benetton tried some sort of 4 wheel steer system in testing that year as well? (I don’t have the time these days to look into it any further).

good_Ralf wrote:Gilles Villeneuve raced with the double rear wing at Long Beach in 1982. He qualified 7th, finished 3rd after a spin (or two) in the race and was then DSQed.


...and also had a amazing, but very fair, scrap with Keke Rosberg. IMO that fight was up there with Dijon 1979 as the best F1 has ever seen. Turbo vs Cossie at its finest :P From what I heard their Formula Atlantic fights were just as good.


A battle which can be seen here!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0kdfyNpzYU
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Turbogirl »

Since Aerospeed has already mentioned the Tyrrell P34 and its problem, that the tyre manufacturers were unwilling to produce special tyres for it, here are two versions, that might have worked better, because they used standard tyres instead of smaller ones like Tyrrell did. One is the Williams FW07D, the other one the March 2-4-1. But both were banned along with the six-wheeled Tyrrell, before they could be tested properly. But I remember having read an article, in which Patrick Head stated, the Williams six-wheeler was slightly better than its four-wheeled counterpart, but only slightly.

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But where I'm really going with this post is the infamous Lion GP, probably the most controversial design joke in F1 history. Unfortunately, the thing was never built. It would have been banned by the FIA anyway, because... well, just because! Twelve wheels, powered by a turbine engine. In 1980 no less! I think, it speaks for itself.


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How I would love to see that chimera being featured in one of the many fictional racing serieses on here, but because it was never built, we'll never know how fast it would have been or how it would have fared on circuits like Monaco in general. Even the thought of this monstrosity trying to get through the Grand Hotel Hairpin... :lol:
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Wallio »

I didn't see the Lotus 88 mentioned. To me this car was unjustly banned. It was an ingenious solution to the problems of the day, and its protest fight probably killed Colin Chapman. I often wonder how much more success Lotus would have had with it.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

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Turbogirl wrote:Since Aerospeed has already mentioned the Tyrrell P34 and its problem, that the tyre manufacturers were unwilling to produce special tyres for it, here are two versions, that might have worked better, because they used standard tyres instead of smaller ones like Tyrrell did. One is the Williams FW07D, the other one the March 2-4-1. But both were banned along with the six-wheeled Tyrrell, before they could be tested properly. But I remember having read an article, in which Patrick Head stated, the Williams six-wheeler was slightly better than its four-wheeled counterpart, but only slightly.

Image

With regards to this, I once remeber reading that they tested this in the wet, and the front four wheels (with wet-weather tyres fitted) were so efficient at clearing the rain that they were able to run slicks on the rear-most axle, which would grip perfectly adequately...
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by roblo97 »

AndreaModa wrote:
ibsey wrote:
Backmarker wrote:Enstone's reactive ride height (banned before it was raced?)


IIRC M Schumi had to press a green button on his steering wheel whenever got was on a straight (clearly visible whenever there was an onboard camera) the car would do something to dump drag and give him a few extra miles an hour. Also am I correct in thinking that Benetton tried some sort of 4 wheel steer system in testing that year as well? (I don’t have the time these days to look into it any further).


Correct, right at the end of 1993, though I don't think they ever perfected it enough to actually bring it to a race, or maybe it was banned before they could?

The 4 wheeled steer actually made the cars slower in tight hairpins and produced no real gain under normal circumstances. This may explain why it was scrapped

Wallio wrote:I didn't see the Lotus 88 mentioned. To me this car was unjustly banned. It was an ingenious solution to the problems of the day, and its protest fight probably killed Colin Chapman. I often wonder how much more success Lotus would have had with it.

Well, Mansell and De angelis said that the car was quite nice to drive and had a good weight balance so the potential was there for the concept to be refined IMO.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Turbogirl »

dr-baker wrote:
Turbogirl wrote:Since Aerospeed has already mentioned the Tyrrell P34 and its problem, that the tyre manufacturers were unwilling to produce special tyres for it, here are two versions, that might have worked better, because they used standard tyres instead of smaller ones like Tyrrell did. One is the Williams FW07D, the other one the March 2-4-1. But both were banned along with the six-wheeled Tyrrell, before they could be tested properly. But I remember having read an article, in which Patrick Head stated, the Williams six-wheeler was slightly better than its four-wheeled counterpart, but only slightly.

Image

With regards to this, I once remeber reading that they tested this in the wet, and the front four wheels (with wet-weather tyres fitted) were so efficient at clearing the rain that they were able to run slicks on the rear-most axle, which would grip perfectly adequately...

You're right, they did. That may have been the biggest plus of the Tyrrell P34 in general. In the dry it was on par with its four-wheeled counterparts, but because it had a more complicated technical concept with the four wheels, an additional axle, etc. it was more prone to technical defects. Derek Gardner, who constructed the P34, once stated, they were not sure, if they had continued with six-wheeled car concepts at all, even if the FIA hadn't banned them. The advantages simply weren't high enough to justify the technical and financial expenditure.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by dr-baker »

Turbogirl wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Turbogirl wrote:Since Aerospeed has already mentioned the Tyrrell P34 and its problem, that the tyre manufacturers were unwilling to produce special tyres for it, here are two versions, that might have worked better, because they used standard tyres instead of smaller ones like Tyrrell did. One is the Williams FW07D, the other one the March 2-4-1. But both were banned along with the six-wheeled Tyrrell, before they could be tested properly. But I remember having read an article, in which Patrick Head stated, the Williams six-wheeler was slightly better than its four-wheeled counterpart, but only slightly.

Image

With regards to this, I once remeber reading that they tested this in the wet, and the front four wheels (with wet-weather tyres fitted) were so efficient at clearing the rain that they were able to run slicks on the rear-most axle, which would grip perfectly adequately...

You're right, they did. That may have been the biggest plus of the Tyrrell P34 in general. In the dry it was on par with its four-wheeled counterparts, but because it had a more complicated technical concept with the four wheels, an additional axle, etc. it was more prone to technical defects. Derek Gardner, who constructed the P34, once stated, they were not sure, if they had continued with six-wheeled car concepts at all, even if the FIA hadn't banned them. The advantages simply weren't high enough to justify the technical and financial expenditure.

But having said all that, I still think that there is a certain beauty in a 6-wheeled F1 car. Whetehr that is because of their rarity and novelty, or a genuine love, I don't know, but the fact remains that I like them.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Turbogirl »

dr-baker wrote:But having said all that, I still think that there is a certain beauty in a 6-wheeled F1 car. Whetehr that is because of their rarity and novelty, or a genuine love, I don't know, but the fact remains that I like them.

Me too. As I once stated, I'm much more interested in the designs of F1 than in any driver right now. And even the McLaren Mp4/10 (see above) is still one of my favourites in terms of design. Don't know why, but all these "weird" design choices have something special to them. They may be ugly and all for some people, but they are still special. Some designer followed his own idea instead of the proven mainstream. If he/she succeeded or failed, is none of my business. But the attempt alone deserves some respect.

Cars like the six-wheelers or Brabham's unconventional BT55, the tower wings and even Lotus' actual fork nose will always have a place in my heart. But then again, I'll have to admit that my most beloved F1 car will always be the Williams FW18. I simply love it's design, even if it is much more conventional than anything in this thread. :)
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

dr-baker wrote:But having said all that, I still think that there is a certain beauty in a 6-wheeled F1 car. Whetehr that is because of their rarity and novelty, or a genuine love, I don't know, but the fact remains that I like them.

So, then, what's the best number of wheels? We know six is cool and twelve is ridiculous... what about eight? Two front and rear axles? Or three on one end? Personally I think either way is stepping into Lion territory when I imagine it.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by dr-baker »

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
dr-baker wrote:But having said all that, I still think that there is a certain beauty in a 6-wheeled F1 car. Whetehr that is because of their rarity and novelty, or a genuine love, I don't know, but the fact remains that I like them.

So, then, what's the best number of wheels? We know six is cool and twelve is ridiculous... what about eight? Two front and rear axles? Or three on one end? Personally I think either way is stepping into Lion territory when I imagine it.

I think 7 is the optimum. Seven? Yes. After all, Lewis Hamilton has had to change 5 wheels in one stop before...
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Turbogirl »

Actually, Derek Gardner doesn't seem to be the first one to ever put six wheels on a race car. I did a little research on this topic and came across the 1949 Pat Clancy Special Indycar. And guess what that thing's trademark was?

Image

And it doesn't stop there! Alfa Romeo had developed the T33/6/12 for the 12 hours of Sebring in 1970.

Image

Got to admit, I've never even heard of those two cars before. :o
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by good_Ralf »

roblomas52 wrote:
Wallio wrote:I didn't see the Lotus 88 mentioned. To me this car was unjustly banned. It was an ingenious solution to the problems of the day, and its protest fight probably killed Colin Chapman. I often wonder how much more success Lotus would have had with it.

Well, Mansell and De angelis said that the car was quite nice to drive and had a good weight balance so the potential was there for the concept to be refined IMO.


Reading about the 1981 I learnt that while the Lotus was banned the Brabham was allowed to race despite its radical (trick?) suspension.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by dr-baker »

Turbogirl wrote:Actually, Derek Gardner doesn't seem to be the first one to ever put six wheels on a race car.

But he does seem to have been the only one to have had two axles at the front of the car rather than two rear axles.

And I bet you're not aware of this version of the Ferrari 312 T2...:

Image

Turbogirl wrote:
dr-baker wrote:But having said all that, I still think that there is a certain beauty in a 6-wheeled F1 car. Whether that is because of their rarity and novelty, or a genuine love, I don't know, but the fact remains that I like them.

Me too.

It's funny. There was a time when, if I ever replied to a female's post with a comment like that, others would think I was being over-friendly. Now you're telling me that you also are a fan of Susie Wolff like me, you're a fan of unusual F1 cars designs in the same way as me, you build upon my arguments that Beverley Turner writes articles shoddily... I have a mini-fanclub!
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Turbogirl »

dr-baker wrote:
Turbogirl wrote:Actually, Derek Gardner doesn't seem to be the first one to ever put six wheels on a race car.

But he does seem to have been the only one to have had two axles at the front of the car rather than two rear axles.

And I bet you're not aware of this version of the Ferrari 312 T2...:

Image

Turbogirl wrote:
dr-baker wrote:But having said all that, I still think that there is a certain beauty in a 6-wheeled F1 car. Whether that is because of their rarity and novelty, or a genuine love, I don't know, but the fact remains that I like them.

Me too.

It's funny. There was a time when, if I ever replied to a female's post with a comment like that, others would think I was being over-friendly. Now you're telling me that you also are a fan of Susie Wolff like me, you're a fan of unusual F1 cars designs in the same way as me, you build upon my arguments that Beverley Turner writes articles shoddily... I have a mini-fanclub!

And one day it'll turn out that I'm really a fat middle-aged bald guy living in the basement of his parents' house. :lol: Deeply sorry, I just couldn't resist. I'm in a very good mood today and I just found the "Reject Sports Names" thread and got a good laugh at it. I hope I haven't just burnt an image into your mind, that'll give you nightmares for the rest of the week...
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by dr-baker »

Turbogirl wrote:
dr-baker wrote: But having said all that, I still think that there is a certain beauty in a 6-wheeled F1 car. Whether that is because of their rarity and novelty, or a genuine love, I don't know, but the fact remains that I like them.

Me too.

Turbogirl wrote:
dr-baker wrote:It's funny. There was a time when, if I ever replied to a female's post with a comment like that, others would think I was being over-friendly. Now you're telling me that you also are a fan of Susie Wolff like me, you're a fan of unusual F1 cars designs in the same way as me, you build upon my arguments that Beverley Turner writes articles shoddily... I have a mini-fanclub!

And one day it'll turn out that I'm really a fat middle-aged bald guy living in the basement of his parents' house. :lol: Deeply sorry, I just couldn't resist. I'm in a very good mood today and I just found the "Reject Sports Names" thread and got a good laugh at it. I hope I haven't just burnt an image into your mind, that'll give you nightmares for the rest of the week...

Nah, it's fine. I have never minded getting a bit of attention, particularly if it is from someone I suspect is close in age, pretty and female... And who claims to have naturally curly wavy hair like the women in my family. Plus me...
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by takagi_for_the_win »

ibsey wrote:
Backmarker wrote:Enstone's reactive ride height (banned before it was raced?)


IIRC M Schumi had to press a green button on his steering wheel whenever got was on a straight (clearly visible whenever there was an onboard camera) the car would do something to dump drag and give him a few extra miles an hour.

I do believe Williams had a similar system on the FW15C, where on long straights the car would rise fractionally at the rear, lessening the Venturi effect of the floor, and thus cutting drag and downforce and by extension, increasing top speed. The system was of course driver controlled, although I doubt it was used too often, given the team's advantage over the rest of the field.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

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roblomas52 wrote:
Wallio wrote:I didn't see the Lotus 88 mentioned. To me this car was unjustly banned. It was an ingenious solution to the problems of the day, and its protest fight probably killed Colin Chapman. I often wonder how much more success Lotus would have had with it.

Well, Mansell and De angelis said that the car was quite nice to drive and had a good weight balance so the potential was there for the concept to be refined IMO.


The Lotus 88 was sheer genius and had the potential to utterly revolutionize the construction and the aerodynamics of Formula 1 cars. It's not often that a car comes along that challenges the accepted practice so comprehensively as the 88 did. I've had the pleasure of working on the Steve Hitchins car that raced in the Thoroughbred Grand Prix and I can appreciate the incredible concept and potential of it. An impartial external consultant (the University of Warsaw in Poland (or was it Krakow?)) deemed the car to be legal. Especially when banning the car on the basis of moveable aerodynamic devices, when there is no static reference point to relate it to. Banning the 88 was a travesty.
I have a little bit of an (un)healthy obsession with the 88. I'll shut up now.
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by roblo97 »

Faustus wrote:
roblomas52 wrote:
Wallio wrote:I didn't see the Lotus 88 mentioned. To me this car was unjustly banned. It was an ingenious solution to the problems of the day, and its protest fight probably killed Colin Chapman. I often wonder how much more success Lotus would have had with it.

Well, Mansell and De angelis said that the car was quite nice to drive and had a good weight balance so the potential was there for the concept to be refined IMO.


The Lotus 88 was sheer genius and had the potential to utterly revolutionize the construction and the aerodynamics of Formula 1 cars. It's not often that a car comes along that challenges the accepted practice so comprehensively as the 88 did. I've had the pleasure of working on the Steve Hitchins car that raced in the Thoroughbred Grand Prix and I can appreciate the incredible concept and potential of it. An impartial external consultant (the University of Warsaw in Poland (or was it Krakow?)) deemed the car to be legal. Especially when banning the car on the basis of moveable aerodynamic devices, when there is no static reference point to relate it to. Banning the 88 was a travesty.
I have a little bit of an (un)healthy obsession with the 88. I'll shut up now.

Haha, your not the only one with an obsession of that car :lol:
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Aerospeed »

More info on the Lotus 88 (rife with spelling errors though...)
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by FA1L »

Aerospeed wrote:More info on the Lotus 88 (rife with spelling errors though...)
Thanks, that is really interesting :)

Also... http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftpw021.html
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Wallio »

The sad part is, it was designed to allow more driver comfort and safety. However, the movable aero/no wings on the suspension rules were also designed for that purpose. After it was banned, Chapman tested a car with no suspension whatsoever, and leaked that it was running quickly. Nearly every team then tested a similar variant (there are Youtube videos). So the FIA endangered the drivers, in the name of driver safety! :D
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Turbogirl »

I felt the need to add a few more pics of strange nosecone winglets. Both from Honda F1:

Image

Image
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Re: Your most controversial F1 innovation?

Post by Cynon »

Turbogirl wrote:I felt the need to add a few more pics of strange nosecone winglets. Both from Honda F1:

Image

Image


For a second I thought you were going to say something about Honda's earth car livery. Then I read the text.
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