Arrows A24 ? and Prost AP05 ?

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 16 Dec 2012, 14:35

I was googling for some pictures of the minardi 2002 team.
When i came in a forum where they dicussed about the Arrows A24 that was already in design mode.... does anyone know more about this ?

And what about this, i found also this on Ebay a guy is selling a frontcoin with wing from the prost AP05... so my question how far was this car, i know the scale moddels and stuff.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Prost ... 0674815597

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 16 Dec 2012, 14:49

f1-gast wrote:I was googling for some pictures of the minardi 2002 team.
When i came in a forum where they dicussed about the Arrows A24 that was already in design mode.... does anyone know more about this ?

And what about this, i found also this on Ebay a guy is selling a nosecone with wing from the prost AP05... so my question how far was this car, i know the scale moddels and stuff.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Prost ... 0674815597

I wish I had £3500...

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 16 Dec 2012, 16:26

dr-baker wrote:
f1-gast wrote:I was googling for some pictures of the minardi 2002 team.
When i came in a forum where they dicussed about the Arrows A24 that was already in design mode.... does anyone know more about this ?

And what about this, i found also this on Ebay a guy is selling a nosecone with wing from the prost AP05... so my question how far was this car, i know the scale moddels and stuff.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Prost ... 0674815597

I wish I had £3500...

It's in Dudley as well, if I had a car, i'd just pick it up personally.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 16 Dec 2012, 17:37

That's got scam written all over it as far as I'm concerned, there's absolutely no proof whatsoever that the front wing and nose shown belonged to the AP05, and the one picture of the full car he supplies with the listing is of the rear end where the nose and FW can't be seen at all. I'd want to see some official documents or proof of some kind that it was genuine before I'd even consider making him an offer, let alone stumping up £3.5k!

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 16 Dec 2012, 18:40

AndreaModa wrote:That's got scam written all over it as far as I'm concerned, there's absolutely no proof whatsoever that the front wing and nose shown belonged to the AP05, and the one picture of the full car he supplies with the listing is of the rear end where the nose and FW can't be seen at all. I'd want to see some official documents or proof of some kind that it was genuine before I'd even consider making him an offer, let alone stumping up £3.5k!

And I've seen Enron, the Smartest Guys in the Room. This reeks of scam more than Enron did.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 16 Dec 2012, 19:05

This is the scale model front view of the AP05

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 16 Dec 2012, 19:53

f1-gast wrote:I was googling for some pictures of the minardi 2002 team.
When i came in a forum where they dicussed about the Arrows A24 that was already in design mode.... does anyone know more about this ?

I can assure you that there was never such a thing as an Arrows A24. There were some concepts and some CAD models of some assemblies, but nothing approaching a complete design. We had spoken of 2003, but we had concluded that in all likelihood we would have used a revised A23.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 16 Dec 2012, 20:00

f1-gast wrote:And what about this, i found also this on Ebay a guy is selling a frontcoin with wing from the prost AP05... so my question how far was this car, i know the scale moddels and stuff.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Prost ... 0674815597

It really does look like the nosecone from the windtunnel model. It is possible that it is genuine. Usually the mandatory impact tests of the nosecone and the rear crash structure are carried out in isolation, without the monocoque, and before the chassis is completed, so it is possible that it was a nosecone ready for testing.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 16 Dec 2012, 20:16

Well i added the Arrows A24 to my list of never raced / still born F1 cars.
Since there are a couple of articles about this A24.

Would love to see those CAD drawnings though.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 16 Dec 2012, 20:23

f1-gast wrote:Well i added the Arrows A24 to my list of never raced / still born F1 cars.
Since there are a couple of articles about this A24.

Would love to see those CAD drawnings though.

A lot of forums and sites associate the so-called Arrows A24 with the Minardi PS04 that Minardi tested in 2003. The PS04 was just an A23.
Believe me, there was no such thing as an A24.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 16 Dec 2012, 20:37

As far as i found there would be a several drawnings of the car, they only worked on the car for a couple of weeks.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 16 Dec 2012, 21:42

f1-gast wrote:As far as i found there would be a several drawnings of the car, they only worked on the car for a couple of weeks.

Well maybe you don't know this as you weren't here for a long time, but, Faustas was working for Arrows F1 in their final year of F1...so I think if he says there is no A24, we can be certain there is no A24

S951 · Post by **S951** » 16 Dec 2012, 21:44

that ebay link is for a front nose cone/wing from the ap03 that was for sale a good while ago and the guy selling it now doesn't have a clue

also as said Faustas was working with arrows for few years so no a24 he says is what i believe to

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 16 Dec 2012, 21:48

Yeah, no A24, but I think f1-gast's point is that there were plans drawn up for an A24 that was never built that he's trying to locate.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 16 Dec 2012, 22:00

This is what i know, and yes im kinda hardhead who doesnt listen to others.
But i just love those still born F1 cars and stuff.

Paul Stoddart bought the plans for the A24, now i dont know how to get in contact with Paul otherwice i would ask it him self.
The PS04(B) has been tested with fully A23 liverty by Verstappen an Kiesha in 2003 but for the PS04 they used the best of both designs (remind Arrows A23 and Minardi PS04)

I know they start CAD designing the Car in May / June 2002 the car was called A24.
The designers where Sergio Rinland as far as i know

Edit:
"Stoddart now owns the blueprints and intellectual property rights to the Mike Coughlan/Sergio Rinland designed A24 and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that a working chassis could be built for next season."

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 17 Dec 2012, 09:31

f1-gast wrote:This is what i know, and yes im kinda hardhead who doesnt listen to others.
But i just love those still born F1 cars and stuff.

Paul Stoddart bought the plans for the A24, now i dont know how to get in contact with Paul otherwice i would ask it him self.
The PS04(B) has been tested with fully A23 liverty by Verstappen an Kiesha in 2003 but for the PS04 they used the best of both designs (remind Arrows A23 and Minardi PS04)

Paul Stoddart bought the IP rights to the A23 (not A24) and 5 chassis (2 of which were complete), along with all the tooling to manufacture the cars and a shitload of other stuff, at the auction of Arrows' assets in June 2003. One chassis was prepared and tested in Minardi livery in Mugello in September 2003. I believe there was also a straightline test in the UK before this test, but I can't confirm it. The rights were then sold by Paul Stoddart to Super Aguri, along with 3 monocoques, at the end of 2005 and the car became the Super Aguri SA05.

f1-gast wrote:I know they start CAD designing the Car in May / June 2002 the car was called A24.
The designers where Sergio Rinland as far as i know

Sergio Rinland left at the end of April, basically the week before I joined. I started on the 22nd of April.
There were some concept drawings, high-end stuff, not very detailed, for a replacement for the A23. It had a thin low nose and looked A LOT like the McLaren MP4-18. I first saw some stuff in June 2002, after I came back from the Canadian GP. I repeat, no complete design was ever produced and these concepts were a VERY LONG WAY from being ready for manufacture. During the summer, as more and more people left, the plan was that, assuming we finished the season, we would use a revised A23 in 2003. We weren't sure which engine we would use, because we weren't very popular with Cosworth, although it's hard to imagine what else we could use, since there really was no alternative.
Mike Coughlan definitely worked on it, as well as Niccolo Petrucci, John Davis and several other people, including me!

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 17 Dec 2012, 10:37

Thanks for the information !
Still i'm gonna find out what those rights where that Stoddart exactly bought.

Those scatches are probably lost i think from the arrows A24 ?
If you dont mind im gonna add your comment in the document about the Arrows A24 if you dont mind

!

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 17 Dec 2012, 10:58

f1-gast wrote:Still i'm gonna find out what those rights where that Stoddart exactly bought.

This is pretty good and has some good information on the stuff that Stoddart bought at the auction:

http://www.motorsportsalmanac.com/mastu ... 030922.pdf

f1-gast wrote:Those scatches are probably lost i think from the arrows A24 ?

Everything would have been on the Arrows intranet, so who knows what happened to all of that.

f1-gast wrote:If you dont mind im gonna add your comment in the document about the Arrows A24 if you dont mind !

By all means, go ahead.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 22 Dec 2012, 18:18

Hey, here's an idea.
Why don't we buy all F1 (Reject)-related parts that are sold on ebay, and once we have plenty, cobble together a weird looking car, call it a prototype, and try to get it entered in the Unclassified category at Le Mans? :lol:

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Dec 2012, 18:41

Waris wrote:Hey, here's an idea.
Why don't we buy all F1 (Reject)-related parts that are sold on ebay, and once we have plenty, cobble together a weird looking car, call it a prototype, and try to get it entered in the Unclassified category at Le Mans?

I expect we'd do a JLOC - qualify in last, run one lap and then retire. But we can one-up their effort of hiring Marco Apicella to do so by hiring Taki Inoue instead

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 14 Feb 2013, 19:33

Faustus wrote:
Sergio Rinland left at the end of April, basically the week before I joined. I started on the 22nd of April.
There were some concept drawings, high-end stuff, not very detailed, for a replacement for the A23. It had a thin low nose and looked A LOT like the McLaren MP4-18. I first saw some stuff in June 2002, after I came back from the Canadian GP. I repeat, no complete design was ever produced and these concepts were a VERY LONG WAY from being ready for manufacture. During the summer, as more and more people left, the plan was that, assuming we finished the season, we would use a revised A23 in 2003. We weren't sure which engine we would use, because we weren't very popular with Cosworth, although it's hard to imagine what else we could use, since there really was no alternative.
Mike Coughlan definitely worked on it, as well as Niccolo Petrucci, John Davis and several other people, including me!

Stupid question Faustus (and maybe you answered this somewhere else, and if so I apologize) but didn't you still have the Hart/TWR/Arrows lumps? Down on power surely, but they would be cheaper right?

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 14 Feb 2013, 20:22

Wallio wrote:
Faustus wrote:
Sergio Rinland left at the end of April, basically the week before I joined. I started on the 22nd of April.
There were some concept drawings, high-end stuff, not very detailed, for a replacement for the A23. It had a thin low nose and looked A LOT like the McLaren MP4-18. I first saw some stuff in June 2002, after I came back from the Canadian GP. I repeat, no complete design was ever produced and these concepts were a VERY LONG WAY from being ready for manufacture. During the summer, as more and more people left, the plan was that, assuming we finished the season, we would use a revised A23 in 2003. We weren't sure which engine we would use, because we weren't very popular with Cosworth, although it's hard to imagine what else we could use, since there really was no alternative.
Mike Coughlan definitely worked on it, as well as Niccolo Petrucci, John Davis and several other people, including me!

Stupid question Faustus (and maybe you answered this somewhere else, and if so I apologize) but didn't you still have the Hart/TWR/Arrows lumps? Down on power surely, but they would be cheaper right?

Yes I guess the option of using the old Hart/Arrows V10 could have been a possibility, but the engine had pretty much no development since 1998 (there wasn't much done to the engine in 1999) and it would have been obscenely down on power and torque, bad on fuel consumption, not too mention that it was a fairly big lump. I seem to remember hearing a rumour back then that Tom Walkinshaw was working on selling the rights to the engine to someone who wanted to use it in a supercar.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 14 Feb 2013, 20:35

Well it is possible that arrows had a contract with Cosworth or Acer / Ferrari for 2003

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 14 Feb 2013, 20:43

f1-gast wrote:Well it is possible that arrows had a contract with Cosworth or Acer / Ferrari for 2003

I remember discussions about engine options for 2003 and pretty much the only viable option was Cosworth.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 14 Feb 2013, 21:33

Faustus wrote:
Yes I guess the option of using the old Hart/Arrows V10 could have been a possibility, but the engine had pretty much no development since 1998 (there wasn't much done to the engine in 1999) and it would have been obscenely down on power and torque, bad on fuel consumption, not too mention that it was a fairly big lump. I seem to remember hearing a rumour back then that Tom Walkinshaw was working on selling the rights to the engine to someone who wanted to use it in a supercar.

Ah, I forgot that Tom spent most of his money getting the engines and had little left for development. An F1 powered supercar? That'd be fun.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 15 Feb 2013, 10:13

Faustus wrote:
f1-gast wrote:Well it is possible that arrows had a contract with Cosworth or Acer / Ferrari for 2003

I remember discussions about engine options for 2003 and pretty much the only viable option was Cosworth.

The Cosworth engine really was a lovely engine. Small, good cooling requirements, good on fuel consumption, loads of usable power and torque. Probably as good as the Mercedes engine, so probably 3rd best that year. It was expensive, but it was worth it.

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 15 Feb 2013, 11:15

f1-gast wrote:Well it is possible that arrows had a contract with Cosworth or Acer / Ferrari for 2003

Did you ever get anything back from the ex-Arrows contacts I found you?

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 16 Feb 2013, 15:23

Yes i received a lot of information back i can send you it if you like.
Still have to send 2 guys an email.

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 20 Feb 2013, 12:35

f1-gast wrote:Yes i received a lot of information back i can send you it if you like.
Still have to send 2 guys an email.

Sorry for the slowness in replying, I've been in a cottage with only my phone for the internet. If you did, that would be great. Of course, I'm sure other people on here would be interested...

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 20 Feb 2013, 21:04

Faustus wrote:
Faustus wrote:
f1-gast wrote:Well it is possible that arrows had a contract with Cosworth or Acer / Ferrari for 2003

I remember discussions about engine options for 2003 and pretty much the only viable option was Cosworth.

The Cosworth engine really was a lovely engine. Small, good cooling requirements, good on fuel consumption, loads of usable power and torque. Probably as good as the Mercedes engine, so probably 3rd best that year. It was expensive, but it was worth it.

And it suddenly shows just how horrifically bad the original Jaguar R3 was that year if they were squandering an engine of that quality.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 22 Feb 2013, 11:39

Wizzie wrote:
Faustus wrote:The Cosworth engine really was a lovely engine. Small, good cooling requirements, good on fuel consumption, loads of usable power and torque. Probably as good as the Mercedes engine, so probably 3rd best that year. It was expensive, but it was worth it.

And it suddenly shows just how horrifically bad the original Jaguar R3 was that year if they were squandering an engine of that quality.

Hell yes. Arrows had maybe a fifth of the budget of Jaguar yet could regularly outqualify them.

I still think the worst Jaguar was the R1. That was an awful, evil-handling car with bizarre design decisions on it. Case in point, the brake caliper on the front wheels. I've seen the caliper mounted at the bottom of the brake / hub (makes sense for the weight distribution), behind and therefore within the wheelbase (again, weight distribution) and in front (to distribute weight towards the front to improve turn-in) but I had NEVER seen or heard of anyone mounting the bathplug thing ON TOP!

Post by **mario** » 22 Feb 2013, 13:36

Faustus wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
Faustus wrote:The Cosworth engine really was a lovely engine. Small, good cooling requirements, good on fuel consumption, loads of usable power and torque. Probably as good as the Mercedes engine, so probably 3rd best that year. It was expensive, but it was worth it.

And it suddenly shows just how horrifically bad the original Jaguar R3 was that year if they were squandering an engine of that quality.

Hell yes. Arrows had maybe a fith of the budget of Jaguar yet could regularly outqualify them.

I still think the worst Jaguar was the R1. That was an awful, evil-handling car with bizarre design decisions on it. Case in point, the brake caliper on the front wheels. I've seen the caliper mounted at the bottom of the brake / hub (makes sense for the weight distribution), behind and therefore within the wheelbase (again, weight distribution) and in front (to distribute weight towards the front to improve turn-in) but I had NEVER seen or heard of anyone mounting the bathplug thing ON TOP!

Speaking of peculiar design decisions with the brakes (and mounting the calipers at the top is pecular - did you every work out what they were thinking in that instance?), were they not also considering running with grey iron brake disks that year too? I recall hearing that they did turn up with iron brake disks for one test session to evaluate their performance, which indicated that the braking distances were comparable to conventional carbon disks, but the iron disks had far higher cooling requirements and a tendency to crack under heavy braking loads.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 22 Feb 2013, 15:18

mario wrote:Speaking of peculiar design decisions with the brakes (and mounting the calipers at the top is pecular - did you every work out what they were thinking in that instance?), were they not also considering running with grey iron brake disks that year too? I recall hearing that they did turn up with iron brake disks for one test session to evaluate their performance, which indicated that the braking distances were comparable to conventional carbon disks, but the iron disks had far higher cooling requirements and a tendency to crack under heavy braking loads.

No, never quite figured out what the reasoning was behind mounting the caliper at the top or even what the thought process behind it was.

I vaguely remember the iron brake thing as well. Jaguar really was completely bathplug in those days. Running a Formula 1 team by committee and from a distance just doesn't work.

midgrid · Post by **midgrid** » 22 Feb 2013, 19:01

Williams also tested steel brakes in tests before the 1995 British Grand Prix. Damon Hill was impressed by their performance, but the team elected to stick with carbon fibre.

Monstrobolaxa · Post by **Monstrobolaxa** » 22 Feb 2013, 19:56

Alex Zanardi raced with steel brakes in Italy in 1999...

Post by **mario** » 22 Feb 2013, 21:12

Faustus wrote:
mario wrote:Speaking of peculiar design decisions with the brakes (and mounting the calipers at the top is pecular - did you every work out what they were thinking in that instance?), were they not also considering running with grey iron brake disks that year too? I recall hearing that they did turn up with iron brake disks for one test session to evaluate their performance, which indicated that the braking distances were comparable to conventional carbon disks, but the iron disks had far higher cooling requirements and a tendency to crack under heavy braking loads.

No, never quite figured out what the reasoning was behind mounting the caliper at the top or even what the thought process behind it was.

I vaguely remember the iron brake thing as well. Jaguar really was completely bathplug in those days. Running a Formula 1 team by committee and from a distance just doesn't work.

As, indeed, Honda demonstrated in 2007 and 2008 (you know a car is bad when the mechanics basically asked Button to torch the car at the season ending race in Brazil).

You do wonder how much wasted potential there was in some of the designs that they churned out over the years, and the designers that worked there. Red Bull's first car, the RB1, was supposedly based heavily on what would have been the successor to Jaguar's final car, the R5, and much of the design team stayed on from Jaguar to Red Bull (such as the Chief Aerodynamicist, Ben Agathangelou, who stayed on until 2007). Even though it was mismanaged, there must have been something salvageable amongst the confusion and detritus.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 23 Feb 2013, 17:31

midgrid wrote:Williams also tested steel brakes in tests before the 1995 British Grand Prix. Damon Hill was impressed by their performance, but the team elected to stick with carbon fibre.

In the Mechanic's Tale, Steve Matchett talks of a 1993 Benetton back-to-back style test with steel brakes (allegedly the FIA was going to ban carbon disks as part of their 1994 banhammer fest) and he claims their was absolutely no performacne difference whatsoever. Braking distances, lap times, heat absorbsion, durability, even lap times, was pretty much bang on. He claims the only difference is weight, and thus, weight distribution (which are pretty important) and of course the price.....

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 18 Mar 2013, 14:18

mario wrote:
Faustus wrote:
mario wrote:Speaking of peculiar design decisions with the brakes (and mounting the calipers at the top is pecular - did you every work out what they were thinking in that instance?), were they not also considering running with grey iron brake disks that year too? I recall hearing that they did turn up with iron brake disks for one test session to evaluate their performance, which indicated that the braking distances were comparable to conventional carbon disks, but the iron disks had far higher cooling requirements and a tendency to crack under heavy braking loads.

No, never quite figured out what the reasoning was behind mounting the caliper at the top or even what the thought process behind it was.

I vaguely remember the iron brake thing as well. Jaguar really was completely bathplug in those days. Running a Formula 1 team by committee and from a distance just doesn't work.

As, indeed, Honda demonstrated in 2007 and 2008 (you know a car is bad when the mechanics basically asked Button to torch the car at the season ending race in Brazil).

You do wonder how much wasted potential there was in some of the designs that they churned out over the years, and the designers that worked there. Red Bull's first car, the RB1, was supposedly based heavily on what would have been the successor to Jaguar's final car, the R5, and much of the design team stayed on from Jaguar to Red Bull (such as the Chief Aerodynamicist, Ben Agathangelou, who stayed on until 2007). Even though it was mismanaged, there must have been something salvageable amongst the confusion and detritus.

It's shocking that Jaguar were such a horrible operation. You are talking about strange design decisions in the R1, but the design of that car was started when Jaguar were still Stewart (I believe the buyout was announced around June 1999), and we know Stewart were a decent team which had showed great progress with the SF3. And then, the RB1 was effectively the car that Jaguar would have raced in 2005 (Dave Pitchforth, who was fired by the new owners a few weeks after they bought the team, says that he kept referring to the car as the R6) and, results-wise, it was the best car that Jaguar ever designed, even though they probably lost some development time during the winter, when they didn't know if they would compete in 2005. It's like if the name was cursed...

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 18 Mar 2013, 18:11

Faustus wrote:Jaguar really was completely bathplug in those days. Running a Formula 1 team by committee and from a distance just doesn't work.

IIRC, JYS also wasn't especially complementary about his dealings with the management at Jaguar, within his book "Winning is not Enough".

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 18 Mar 2013, 21:45

ibsey wrote:
Faustus wrote:Jaguar really was completely bathplug in those days. Running a Formula 1 team by committee and from a distance just doesn't work.

IIRC, JYS also wasn't especially complementary about his dealings with the management at Jaguar, within his book "Winning is not Enough".

Jackie always knows best though. In every situation, he's ALWAYS right. The only man who repeatedly argues with even Stirling Moss.

But yes, Jaguar were rubbish.