2021 Discussion Thread

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TheBigJ
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by TheBigJ »

Actually you raise a good point

I think many of us who are pre-Netflix (let's put it that way) are too used to Safety Cars being a fact of life in Formula 1. And don't see their overuse as something negative or positive. We saw Vettel win a championship under SC conditions.

Many people tuning into Channel 4 for the first time to see a title showdown for the ages will likely be surprised at how a backmarker's accident can either turn the race into a procession, or impact the frontrunner's race especially so severely. Many objective viewers who aren't used to motorsport may wonder how a sport that sells itself as being competitive can allow for such a total reset. We saw (poor) analogies with football, as if someone was 9-0 up and the ref had declared a penalty shootout.

The solution though is not Masi's, which is to chop and change in order to favour an exciting end of Safety Car conditions. Really what takagi was saying as a scenario, where Masi green flags the race for the last lap but with the back-markers in between Lewis and Max, is actually the most logical solution the dilemna under the current rules. This is because Hamilton earned the right to have those 4 cars between him and Max at a safety car restart through sheer pace, and the rules seem to allow the Race Director to evaluate that it would take too long for everyone to unlap and give a green flag despite protocol dictating otherwise.

More generally though, I do think what this race should do is act as a catalyst for re-introducing the ban on pitting during the SC period, or some form of mechanism that reduces the advantage of the SC for everyone but the front runner.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

TheBigJ wrote:Really what takagi was saying as a scenario, where Masi green flags the race for the last lap but with the back-markers in between Lewis and Max, is actually the most logical solution the dilemna under the current rules.


I forgot to say it, but this is my personal opinion as well for what should have been done. I'm not as certain what should be done in the future, perhaps stick with it, or perhaps a better idea can be found.

In a perfect world I would probably agree with the proposal below...

TheBigJ wrote:More generally though, I do think what this race should do is act as a catalyst for re-introducing the ban on pitting during the SC period


...But there are problems that would come with it. The main thing is that there would certainly be a safety exception to the ban. In other words the rule would say that entering the pit lane under safety car conditions is prohibited unless there is a safety issue. So for example, a car on old tires will pit because they say they fear there is too high a chance of tire failure. Well ok fine, but a car on tires a lap or two newer can say that the risk (while smaller) is still too great and they must pit too. And so on. In other words, it's probably even harder to be fair than the current policy with the open pit lane. I'm glad you brought it up though and if there is an answer to the problem, it's certainly viable.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

Here's an idea I heard through Gary Anderson, former Jordan technical director. First let me preface it by saying that it sort of assumes that getting the lapped cars out of the way is the right decision and that the problem with doing that on Sunday was there wasn't time to do that within the rules. So the proposal he made is to simply let lapped cars drop back rather than unlap themselves the traditional way. But only do this when you're close to the end of the race (how close? It's not really clear) It would be much faster and would accomplish the same thing as unlapping the normal way. The problem with it is that it doesn't respect the length of the race, meaning there would be cars on the lead lap who had done one less actual lap than the rest. The counter-counter-argument might just be "who cares" for all the depth it's been given in print yet at this point.

Of course neither this nor the current solutions address the seeming unfairness of wiping out a legitimate gap one car may have earned over the car(s) behind it. I should say that the virtual safety car does preserve the gap, but doesn't make it possible to clear a car that is stopped on the track proper.

I'm also just realizing how specific this all is. See, if Latifi had crashed 1-2 laps earlier, they would have cleared the lapped cars through legally under the current rules and the result would have been essentially what we got. If Latifi had crashed 1-2 laps later, the race would absolutely have finished behind the safety car and Hamilton would have won.
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TheBigJ
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by TheBigJ »

If there is a SC 1-2 laps earlier maybe Hamilton pits and calls Red Bull's bluff...if they keep Verstappen out he has 3 laps to fend off Hamilton on supersofts in a faster car. Not as foregone a conclusion as what we saw but definitely Mercedes have more time to think it through.

Speaking of the VSC I honestly think from now it will become more and more the norm (with red flag situations covering a large chunk of old Safety Car situations).
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by Rob Dylan »

I'm also of the specific opinion that, by the logic that Hamilton earned having those cars between himself and Max, I don't think it's ever a good idea to let lapped cars unlap themselves. It only adds to the artificiality already created by the safety cars themselves. It doesn't matter who it is: if you are a lap down, you shouldn't get a free pass to simply rejoin the race and gain 90+ seconds of time on the rest of the field.

In my opinion, where the cars end up after the safety car is out, is where they end up. But I suppose that's digressing from the main point we're all talking about...
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mario
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by mario »

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:I'd really like to get everyone's input on the race ending and what should be done in future. As the rules are currently written, it seems that there were 3 options once Latifi crashed.

1. Finish the race under the safety car
2. Restart with lapped cars in place (i.e. the five cars between Max and Lewis)
3. Red flag the race and restart so there were a few laps left and everyone got the opportunity to change tires etc.

The consensus on the forum seems to be that what had happened was not allowed the way the rules are currently written. So two questions I'd like answered.

1. Which of the three options should have been done on Sunday?

2. In future, which of the three (or some new option you come up with) should be done in a similar situation?

I suppose one item that is worth considering is what exactly the definition of the race director is, and how that position relates to those around them.

The race director is intended to sit above the clerk of the course as the most senior official. If a race director is not present, then the duties of the clerk of the course are to monitor the track conditions, supervise the marshals and emergency services, control the deployment of the safety car and decide upon suspending a session.

If a race director is present, then the clerk of the course is technically subordinate to the race director and, whilst still having those duties, can only exercise them at the discretion of the race director.

As can be seen, the question of "what is the most entertaining method for resolving the race" is not really meant to be entering the equation. The main duties for the race director is for the safe and efficient running of the race and ensuring that the race is undertaken in compliance with the applicable regulations; entertainment value shouldn't intrude there, and why Masi's comments about wanting to ensure an entertaining finish run counter to the entire purpose of his role.

If we look at the situation in terms of the purely administrative process, if it was clear that the clean up operations were going to run into lap 57, it would effectively mean that Masi should then make preparations for the race to finish under safety car conditions, given that article 48.12 would then indicate the safety car shouldn't be withdrawn until the following lap (which would be the final lap).

Whilst I accept that might be seen as anti-climactic, my take is that it would be in accordance with the regulations that outline what the race director or clerk of the course should do in those circumstances.

Now, if Masi wanted to restart the race quickly, but did not want to have to wait for the lapped cars to unlap themselves, then the next option would have been to restart the race without letting the lapped cars unlap themselves (i.e. the second option on your list).

Under the regulations, there is no explicit requirement for the race director to have to order lapped cars out of the way - the regulations state they may do so, but it is at their discretion whether or not they allow that to happen.

In that situation, article 48.12 of the sporting regulations would not need to be applied and thus there would be no need for the race director to wait until the end of the following lap - they could go straight to article 48.13, which would have allowed Masi to withdraw the safety car at the end of lap 57 without having to wait another lap. It would mean Max would have been further back on the track, but it would have also complied with the regulations and would have meant that Masi didn't have to allow additional time for the lapped cars to move out of the way.

With regards to using a red flag, it would technically be permitted by the race director, but it certainly would be a rather contrived and clumsy approach that might not have been hugely popular either. I am not sure that the situation on track did necessarily warrant a red flag, and I am not sure it would have been looked on positively as it might have come across as a bit too contrived.

Now, if we accept that Masi is ultimately doing something that, in my opinion, he shouldn't have been doing and paying too much attention to what was the "more entertaining" scenario, rather than the safest or most efficient, but still wanted to act within the regulations, then I think that the approach that might most closely fit with what Masi wanted to do, yet would still remain within the regulations, would have been the second option (i.e. restarting without letting the lapped cars unlap themselves).

If he went down that route, he could still have his final lap shoot out, yet would still comply with the rules by negating the need for an additional lap by waiting for the lapped cars to unlap themselves.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by Miguel98 »



Mercedes are not going ahead with the appeal. It seems the comission has been part of a deal made between the manufacturer and the FIA, to be honest. I can see why they are not following, but I think they had a decent strong case. I don't think we've seen the last of this history and I imagine heads will still roll (mainly, Michael Masi's head).
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by TheBigJ »

They had a slamdunk case.

I am really surprised they aren't sueing the FIA for damages. I understand why they didn't challenge Max's title but I was expecting people higher up than Toto Wollf telling him that this is a way to get back the millions invested into this season.

Reading reddit's reaction I didn't realise McLaren had a case after Brazil 2007 given BMWs and Rosberg's Williams had low fuel samples...can you imagine being Hamilton and realising that you were basically robbed 2 titles to make you the GOAT (ok granted Brazil 2008 was also a miracle)? But more importantly, it shows how difficult it is to put the champagne back in the bottle.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by James1978 »

Some recompense for Hamilton is to think back to 2008 and an equally dodgy safety car (not at the last race, but in Singapore) - without that, Massa would have probably won the race, and with it would have had enough points in hand in Brazil for the Glock situation to have been completely irrelevant. True it might have made McLaren more aggressive in Brazil than they actually were but Massa was untouchable that day and the Singapore safety car produced an 8-point swing in Hamilton's favour (Massa gains 10 points and Hamilton gains 2 by finishing 2nd instead of 3rd).

I can't think the intervening races in Japan and China would have been any different with the points swing as Hamilton was well and truly in kamikaze mode in Japan and still would have been facing a points deficit and won China comfortably.

OK so the procedure for the Singapore safety car was done correctly unlike last weekend, but it's presence was caused in dodgy circumstance by a bloke whose sister is now dating none other than......Max Verstappen.

So if stuff truly evens out then Verstappen owes this title to Massa. :D
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

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tristan1117 wrote:The ESPN access here in the United States where there is no paywall


What? Cable is the biggest paywall we have here in the US.

TheBigJ wrote:Reading reddit's reaction


Don't ever do that. About anything. Terrible form of self-harm.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by yannicksamlad »

Rob Dylan wrote:I'm also of the specific opinion that, by the logic that Hamilton earned having those cars between himself and Max, I don't think it's ever a good idea to let lapped cars unlap themselves. It only adds to the artificiality already created by the safety cars themselves. It doesn't matter who it is: if you are a lap down, you shouldn't get a free pass to simply rejoin the race and gain 90+ seconds of time on the rest of the field.

In my opinion, where the cars end up after the safety car is out, is where they end up. But I suppose that's digressing from the main point we're all talking about...

I'm right with this.
And against throwing red flags unless you have to, for barrier repair, etc.

And given how often they use the safety car, why not finish behind it if you can't clear and clean the track in time? If you do red flag, I think a safety car restart is fairest ( but F1 has already decided they like standing starts too much, for the show).
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx »

What about if they followed the procedure in lower formulae that when the safety car comes out, the laps are neutralized-that way if there were 5 laps to go when it came out, then there would still be 5 laps left and we wouldn't have arguments about whether to finish under a safety car or go for a one lap sprint?
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

Mercedes made the right decision to drop the complaint/appeal. They may have had a strong case that the race wasn't run correctly, but that doesn't give them the win. At best (for them) the race could have been excluded, which would have meant either re-running the race (never going to happen) or the leader after the previous race would be declared the winner, in which case Max would have still won.

I think Masi should be reassigned elsewhere in the organization. He certainly shouldn't be worrying about facilitating an exciting finish, merely running the race safely.


MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx wrote:What about if they followed the procedure in lower formulae that when the safety car comes out, the laps are neutralized-that way if there were 5 laps to go when it came out, then there would still be 5 laps left and we wouldn't have arguments about whether to finish under a safety car or go for a one lap sprint?


I did not know that this was the procedure in the lower formulae. Anyone know why this is different? What are the reasons it could or couldn't work in F1?
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

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Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: I did not know that this was the procedure in the lower formulae. Anyone know why this is different? What are the reasons it could or couldn't work in F1?


Fuel for one. The cars are so tightly fueled (or in Perez's case this week deliberately unfueled) to just make it and give a sample. An extra five laps or so who cripple most of the field and we'd have a Formula E style ending.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

Wallio wrote:
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: I did not know that this was the procedure in the lower formulae. Anyone know why this is different? What are the reasons it could or couldn't work in F1?


Fuel for one. The cars are so tightly fueled (or in Perez's case this week deliberately unfueled) to just make it and give a sample. An extra five laps or so who cripple most of the field and we'd have a Formula E style ending.


Wouldn't F2, F3 etc. be tightly fueled too or do they regulate the carrying of extra fuel just in case?
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by dr-baker »

I like the BTCC regulation of adding up to three laps, which teams can account for. As long as the race director/dictator doesn't then play by his own rules...
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

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Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:
Wouldn't F2, F3 etc. be tightly fueled too or do they regulate the carrying of extra fuel just in case?



I honestly don't know. Being a spec series I could see the rule being that everyone must be brimmed, although how do you enforce that?
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by dr-baker »

I see on Autosport that we have had a new FIA President this week, since the controversy of the final race, Mohammed Ben Sulayem. He is the first ever non-European President of the FIA, and so far, he is speaking some strong words against F1 rulebreakers it seems. E.g. handing a fine to Lewis Hamilton for missing the FIA prize-giving gala. It will be interesting to see what the fallout from the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix will be, given this change at the very top. Jean Todt always seemed to be very hands off when it came to F1 during his presidency, but Mohammed Ben Sulayem may be less so.

I remember buying my first ever F1 News magazine in early 1994 and in the news segment, Max Mosley was quoted as saying he would be draconian on F1 rulebreakers that year. I remember that because I had to look up what draconian meant. Will be interesting to see how this all pans out if Mohammed Ben Sulayem is cut from a cloth more similar to Mosley than Todt.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

dr-baker wrote:I see on Autosport that we have had a new FIA President this week, since the controversy of the final race, Mohammed Ben Sulayem. He is the first ever non-European President of the FIA, and so far, he is speaking some strong words against F1 rulebreakers it seems. E.g. handing a fine to Lewis Hamilton for missing the FIA prize-giving gala. It will be interesting to see what the fallout from the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix will be, given this change at the very top. Jean Todt always seemed to be very hands off when it came to F1 during his presidency, but Mohammed Ben Sulayem may be less so.

I remember buying my first ever F1 News magazine in early 1994 and in the news segment, Max Mosley was quoted as saying he would be draconian on F1 rulebreakers that year. I remember that because I had to look up what draconian meant. Will be interesting to see how this all pans out if Mohammed Ben Sulayem is cut from a cloth more similar to Mosley than Todt.


I don’t know, going after Hamilton in this case sort of feels like Human Resources writing up an employee for violating the dress code while allowing the CFO to embezzle millions of dollars.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by CoopsII »

dr-baker wrote:I remember buying my first ever F1 News magazine in early 1994 and in the news segment, Max Mosley was quoted as saying he would be draconian on F1 rulebreakers that year. I remember that because I had to look up what draconian meant. Will be interesting to see how this all pans out if Mohammed Ben Sulayem is cut from a cloth more similar to Mosley than Todt.

I bought that same issue. 1994 was the season Benetton had an illegal traction control system but the FIA "couldn't prove it" :facepalm:
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

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Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:I don’t know, going after Hamilton in this case sort of feels like Human Resources writing up an employee for violating the dress code while allowing the CFO to embezzle millions of dollars.

Oh don't worry, it appears the FIA will continue to run with it's usual clear and consistent messaging....

The BBC F1 site wrote: "If there is any breach, there is no forgiveness in this," Ben Sulayem said.

Asked to clarify whether he was saying Hamilton would be penalised for not attending the gala, he said: "Forgiveness is always there. But rules are rules.


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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

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Absolutely classic.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by James1978 »

I reckon if Hamilton gets fined or penalised for missing the awards ceremony then he walks away from the sport which would be tragic given it would all be because the rules got changed at the last minute.......and rumours are saying if that happens then Bottas gets recalled to Mercedes and Giovinazzi gets recalled to Alfa Romeo. But it would virtually give Verstappen the 2022 title unless the rule changes completely up-end the competitive order!
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by SammiRei »

James1978 wrote:I reckon if Hamilton gets fined or penalised for missing the awards ceremony then he walks away from the sport which would be tragic given it would all be because the rules got changed at the last minute.......and rumours are saying if that happens then Bottas gets recalled to Mercedes and Giovinazzi gets recalled to Alfa Romeo. But it would virtually give Verstappen the 2022 title unless the rule changes completely up-end the competitive order!


Isn't Giovinazzi already signed to Dragon/Penske in Formula E, though? I could maybe see transfers in the same formula being reversed, but swapping to an entirely different one might be trickier to back out from.
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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread

Post by mario »

SammiRei wrote:
James1978 wrote:I reckon if Hamilton gets fined or penalised for missing the awards ceremony then he walks away from the sport which would be tragic given it would all be because the rules got changed at the last minute.......and rumours are saying if that happens then Bottas gets recalled to Mercedes and Giovinazzi gets recalled to Alfa Romeo. But it would virtually give Verstappen the 2022 title unless the rule changes completely up-end the competitive order!


Isn't Giovinazzi already signed to Dragon/Penske in Formula E, though? I could maybe see transfers in the same formula being reversed, but swapping to an entirely different one might be trickier to back out from.

If Albon's experience was anything to go by, where he was able to backtrack out of his Formula E contract to take a seat at Toro Rosso, it looks like it could probably be done.
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