The place for speaking your mind on current goings-on in F1
by Londoner 08 Dec 2011, 16:21
As we all know, the dark season that was 1994 was littered of allegations of cheating from many teams, just adding to the torment of that year. The biggest allegations were levied at Benetton from many quarters, for using banned driver aids, and illegally altered fuelling rigs. I cannot give my own opinion on this , as I never saw that season live (although I know where I can see them in full...). Now 17 years on, Jos Verstappen has come out, all guns blazing, saying that Schumacher's Benetton was illegal that year.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111207/F1/111209910#ixzz1fsbI5TKx

Discuss

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by eagleash 08 Dec 2011, 17:28
Oh so that's what Joe Saward's post headlined "Verstappen tells like it is" was all about. I didn't bother reading it as I thought Verstappen would have nothing relevant to say.

Yep. Pretty much. :P

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by dr-baker 08 Dec 2011, 17:39
When the Senna film came out earlier this year, there were a lot of interviews with the director/producer/etc. about the film, and in one of the interviews (it may have been on Radio 5 Live, but I am not sure), they mentioned a section of the Imola GP weekendthat hit the cutting-room floor, where they had footage captured from the same camera in the same location of various cars. Schumacher's car was able to do things that others could not do without spinning (including Senna I believe), with clear differences in engine noise and pitch (traction control...).

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by Minardi Man 08 Dec 2011, 19:26
lol, it's obvious isn't it, of course they were cheating.
Then again, a team with Flavio Briatore and Micheal Schumacher does sound like a team that would be far above foul play :roll:
Last edited by Minardi Man on 08 Dec 2011, 22:36, edited 1 time in total.
by Cynon 08 Dec 2011, 21:30
Minardi Man wrote:lol, it's obvious isn't it, of course they were cheating.
Then again, a team with Flavio Briatore and Micheal Schumacher does douns like a team that would be far above foul play :roll:


This man knows his material. Michael Schumacher and Flavio Briatore are two wonderful examples of sporting etiquette and fair play, aren't they? :roll:

But yeah, I don't think Verstappen needed to tell us anything, I'm pretty sure everyone knew that Schumi's car was illegal. The fact that Benetton got away with it shows that the engineers always had a one-up on the technical inspectors...

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by Ferrim 08 Dec 2011, 21:35
I certainly never understood how on Earth could Schumacher (or anyone else) lap 3 seconds faster than his teammate at Hockenheim, to be quite honest.

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by F1000X 08 Dec 2011, 22:01
Specifically, what driver aids were being employed on the car? I've heard about the removal of the fuel filter, but what are the others?

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by DemocalypseNow 08 Dec 2011, 22:13
F1000X wrote:Specifically, what driver aids were being employed on the car? I've heard about the removal of the fuel filter, but what are the others?

Launch Control, TC, and I also understand they did something illegal with the plank of the car to make it run lower than permitted but I'm not sure of the details on that one.

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by mario 08 Dec 2011, 22:20
Cynon wrote:
Minardi Man wrote:lol, it's obvious isn't it, of course they were cheating.
Then again, a team with Flavio Briatore and Micheal Schumacher does douns like a team that would be far above foul play :roll:


This man knows his material. Michael Schumacher and Flavio Briatore are two wonderful examples of sporting etiquette and fair play, aren't they? :roll:

But yeah, I don't think Verstappen needed to tell us anything, I'm pretty sure everyone knew that Schumi's car was illegal. The fact that Benetton got away with it shows that the engineers always had a one-up on the technical inspectors...

And that is the problem - whilst some things may seem evident, it is one thing to make an accusation and another entirely to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. There have been rumblings about the legality of the B194 ever since, with the debate over the "Option 13" software program, but on the other hand the FIA couldn't make the charges stick because they could not find any evidence of a means to detect wheel slip, which would be vital in order for any traction control/launch control program to work.

And I recall from a previous discussion in the "Unpopular Opinions" thread (in a post by ibsey on page 17), the Ferrari 412T was also suspected at one point of using traction control (whilst McLaren's semi-automatic gearbox, in the hearing just before the Benetton fuel rig hearing in the WMSC, was eventually deemed illegal for its gear pre-selection software) - so Benetton were not the only team who were accused of cheating that year.

Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
by Enforcer 08 Dec 2011, 22:42
One of the problems with '94 is the FIA banned a shedload of stuff they had trouble monitoring. Senna infamously stood on the side of the track at the first corner of the Pacific GP after he was knocked out at the start listening for Traction Control. Apparently he flagged both Benettons as sounding a bit suspicious. McLaren's gear pre-selection (or was it an upshift?) was apparently discovered when Phillipe Alliot remarked that the Larousse didn't have one. He'd presumed all the cars had the system


Actually, wasn't the paddock rumour at the time that Schumacher was trying to get out of his Benetton contract to join McLaren in 1995 because he was worried that Benetton's dodginess would tarnish his reputation (mind you, he proved well capable of doing that himself in 1997)? And that it was a factor in his ultimate decision to join Ferrari in 1996?

That said, Verstappen sounds like he's trying to blame all his problems on the cars being unequal. As much as I like Jos, I think there's a certain element of Schumacher being about 4 times better than him involved too.
by Collieafc 08 Dec 2011, 22:49
kostas22 wrote:
F1000X wrote:Specifically, what driver aids were being employed on the car? I've heard about the removal of the fuel filter, but what are the others?

Launch Control, TC, and I also understand they did something illegal with the plank of the car to make it run lower than permitted but I'm not sure of the details on that one.


At Spa wasnt it? The plank got worn down after a spin I think? (It ended with a disqualification, I know that much)

Well Jos, if it was true, why didnt you speak up, oh, 15 years ago? Instead of now where its a bit late to take action and just looks...odd to bring up something like that now

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by ADx_Wales 08 Dec 2011, 22:55
Collieafc wrote:Well Jos, if it was true, why didnt you speak up, oh, 15 years ago? Instead of now where its a bit late to take action and just looks...odd to bring up something like that now


Its like someone travelling back in time and changing something important, only Sam Beckett is allowed to do such things!!!
Damon Hill has two titles to his name and Sebastien Vettel's job of breaking records has become slightly easier. Sam then leaps out of Jos Verstappen and jumps into the body of Randy Bernard, having just been anounced as Indycar CEO "Oh Boy"

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by FullMetalJack 08 Dec 2011, 22:56
Collieafc wrote:Well Jos, if it was true, why didnt you speak up, oh, 15 years ago? Instead of now where its a bit late to take action and just looks...odd to bring up something like that now


Maybe he's trying to attract attention so he can get a drive for next year, he'll be 40 then so he's allowed to sign up for a race seat, as that seems to be the rules. :lol:

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by F1000X 09 Dec 2011, 00:51
mario wrote: And I recall from a previous discussion in the "Unpopular Opinions" thread (in a post by ibsey on page 17), the Ferrari 412T was also suspected at one point of using traction control...


Wait, this car? It looks a little twitchy. Berger is just a complete psychopath.

Nevermind, the first clip is of the 412T2.
Last edited by F1000X on 09 Dec 2011, 04:05, edited 1 time in total.

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by F1000X 09 Dec 2011, 03:57
Myrvold wrote:I think I've read that Ferrari used it in testing, and at the free practice at Imola. But, being 3 years old at the time, I don't know.


Isn't it technically legal to run a car that violates regulation OUTSIDE of competition?

"Sebastian Bourdais- he once was a champ, but now he's a chump." -Will Power
by jakesanson 09 Dec 2011, 08:50
Jamie! Enoch! URGENT! Something in the news struck me this week, and perhaps you can talk about it in your next podcast!

Jos Verstappen said in the news this week that Michael Schumacher definitely used illegal traction control during 1994. Here's what he said:

"You see, Michael also depends on machinery," Verstappen told Dutch magazine NUsport. "For most people he was God, but he’s not Superman, he never was. When I went karting with him he never beat me. I know what happened when we were together at Benetton in 1994, there is a reason.

"People think I'm looking for an excuse when I say this, but I just know that his car was different compared to my car that year. I kept thinking that this cannot be done! I would brake on the limit and go as hard as I could into every corner. So what could I do when Schumacher was able to do that and not me? It just wasn’t right."

Verstappen added that although the team will never admit it, after a drive in Schumacher's 'normal' car at Hockenheim, the situation became clear in his mind.

"There were electronic aids," he commented. "They will never admit it, but I am convinced of it. I later asked Flavio Briatore, who had brought me to Benetton and was then the team's manager. He said 'Let's not talk about it.' So I know enough now.

"I drove Michael's car a few times, at Hockenheim for example, but I spun off. There's no way that he could have been so fast with that set-up. But the system that Michael used wasn't in the car at that moment."

My source is: http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2725 ... erstappen/

Now coupled with the advert that leaked out about Schumacher's 94 Benetton going on sale and possessing traction control (http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 0on%20eBay!) which was advertised as "completely original, with traction control" this got me thinking.

In the Olympic Games, if an athlete is found cheating, not only is he/she disqualified but his/her gold medal is taken away. Now if Verstappen is convinced and we know that the Benetton B194 was equipped with a traction control device, is this not enough evidence even to open a case to investigate it. How is F1 any less or more a sporting standard?

If both Verstappen and Senna (see the Senna movie) were convinced, surely they know what they're talking about, don't they? Williams never lodged a protest, but Benetton got away scott free. Weren't McLaren thrown out of 2007 and fined $100 million for sharing info with Ferrari, which by the way Ferrari started? Where's the consistency?

Surely Michael Schumacher should have his status as 1994 World Champion in similar fashion to the stripping of the gold medal of a cheating athlete. Than at long last, justice would be done and Flavio Briatore and Michael Schumacher could be named and shamed for keeping this crime covered up for 17 years, the paranoia of which probably forced Senna to go beyond his limits at Imola '94.

Your thoughts?

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by jakesanson 09 Dec 2011, 10:25
I've mentioned a neat idea in F1 1994 Olympic tactics.

"Racing drivers are a bit like journalists: they all tick together in case they miss something."
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by eagleash 09 Dec 2011, 11:15
jakesanson wrote:I've mentioned a neat idea in F1 1994 Olympic tactics.


Would have been neater if you'd mentioned it in this thread. :)

& it's well known that Ferrari tried some driver aids that year. As said above in private testing you can do whatever you wish, & something along those lines would be a pretty robust defence by Benetton (or whoever). I.e "we tested the systems, didn't use them & they are now on this car as it was used for demo/testing purposes at seasons end" Difficult to prove otherwise; the testimony of a failed driver in the same team notwithstanding.

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by James1978 09 Dec 2011, 12:08
After Schumacher was "removed" from the 1997 Championship table after his professional foul on Villeneuve at Jerez, that should have removed any doubt that the move on Hill at Adelaide 94 was in the same vein. I always thought the 94 championship should have been awarded to Hill after 97. :)

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by Ferrim 09 Dec 2011, 12:09
Attempting to blame the Benetton team of Senna's death, even if indirectly, is not pretty, you know.

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by mario 09 Dec 2011, 13:15
jakesanson wrote:I've mentioned a neat idea in F1 1994 Olympic tactics.

Since there was an existing topic already which addressed the same issue, I decided to merge the two if that is OK with you (it seems somewhat superfluous to have two threads dealing with the same topic).

And, as eagleash points out, the FIA could probably only choose to open an investigation if somebody came along with conclusive proof that the B194 was equipped with traction control or launch control - at the moment, Verstappen's proof is his claim that the set up Schumacher was using made the car undriveable - he himself quite clearly states that he found no evidence of driver aids in the car at the time, and I'd imagine that in any court of law he'd rapidly come unstuck if cross examined (just because he found the car very difficult to drive does not automatically mean that the car could only be driven with traction control enabled).
Moreover, jakesanson, I know that you've cited that article on pistonheads.com about Schumacher's B194 being advertised on Ebay as having traction control, but IIRC there were those who suspected that the advert was fake, so I would not place any reliance on that (and in addition it is not unknown for race cars to be advertised as being in "original condition" despite undergoing some modifications).

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"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
by Salamander 09 Dec 2011, 14:09
ADx_Wales wrote:
Collieafc wrote:Well Jos, if it was true, why didnt you speak up, oh, 15 years ago? Instead of now where its a bit late to take action and just looks...odd to bring up something like that now


Its like someone travelling back in time and changing something important, only Sam Beckett is allowed to do such things!!!
Damon Hill has two titles to his name and Sebastien Vettel's job of breaking records has become slightly easier. Sam then leaps out of Jos Verstappen and jumps into the body of Randy Bernard, having just been anounced as Indycar CEO "Oh Boy"

Produced by Don P. Bellesario


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by jakesanson 09 Dec 2011, 19:01
You make a fair point. But I do agree that based on Adelaide 94, Damon should be 94 champion retrospectively. Especially after Jerez 97. Good call.

But then Senna could easily have been 1989 champion on the basis of Suzuka, and tub Prost could be one year later so I suppose it's hard to change one without changing them all.

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by ADx_Wales 09 Dec 2011, 21:37
If 1994 was won through cheating, then what about 1995, at the start of the 1996 F1 review video Johnny Herbert, on his switch to sauber, that the Benetton team were much more focused on Michael than on his car, obviously that was a given, but did the same thing happen in 1995?

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by mario 09 Dec 2011, 23:37
ADx_Wales wrote:If 1994 was won through cheating, then what about 1995, at the start of the 1996 F1 review video Johnny Herbert, on his switch to sauber, that the Benetton team were much more focused on Michael than on his car, obviously that was a given, but did the same thing happen in 1995?

If you are referring to accusations of launch/traction control, then no - when Benetton switched from using the Ford V8 to the Renault V10, the team also had to replace the entire electronics system, the transmission system and the rear suspension layout to accommodate the new engine, with a detrimental impact on the handling of the car (Berger was unimpressed with the balance (or lack of) that the B195 had when he tested for Benetton and even Schumacher found that the car was a little too skittish for his taste).

Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
by Myrvold 10 Dec 2011, 01:31
F1000X wrote:
Myrvold wrote:I think I've read that Ferrari used it in testing, and at the free practice at Imola. But, being 3 years old at the time, I don't know.


Isn't it technically legal to run a car that violates regulation OUTSIDE of competition?


It is.
by WeirdKerr 10 Dec 2011, 20:08
Myrvold wrote:
F1000X wrote:
Myrvold wrote:I think I've read that Ferrari used it in testing, and at the free practice at Imola. But, being 3 years old at the time, I don't know.


Isn't it technically legal to run a car that violates regulation OUTSIDE of competition?


It is.


A common ploy in pre season testing was to run a car underweight to attract sponsorship.... i could give a few examples of this from memory but i wont name any teams i think did this in the mid 1990s.....
by Mister Fungus 11 Dec 2011, 01:55
I thought it was a historical consensus that Schumacher had TC when it was banned. I didn't follow F1 then (was a kiddo), but everything I've read about it seemed to be basically concluding that.
by mario 11 Dec 2011, 10:23
Mister Fungus wrote:I thought it was a historical consensus that Schumacher had TC when it was banned. I didn't follow F1 then (was a kiddo), but everything I've read about it seemed to be basically concluding that.

There is some uncertainty over what exactly the FIA found on the ECU of the Ford V8's that Benetton were using that year - some suggest that they found software code relating to launch control whilst some other quarters suggest that they found software code relating to traction control. In addition to that, as I mentioned before, although the FIA found some software within the ECU of the engine that could have allowed them to use traction control, as I understand it they failed to find any form of sensor or other physical hardware to detect wheel slip.
Overall, I wouldn't say that things are quite as clear cut as some believe because we are having to partially work on inference, such as Senna's claims based on observation in Aida and now Verstappen's claims that the car would be undriveable without driver aids (though he didn't actually find any driver aids when he drove the car if you look at what he said). Even the software on the ECU is not entirely conclusive due to the fact the FIA couldn't find the necessary hardware for that program to actually work, nor could they prove beyond reasonable doubt that the software was actually active when the car was in motion.

Overall, though, there is another problem with these claims (apart from the fact that Verstappen has only come on the record now) - even if they are true, the FIA has already set a precedence for allowing the results of a team that cheated to retain their results, and the driver involved to keep their results. Take the Brabham BT52 and the controversy over the fuel samples tested by the FIA after the Italian and European GP's, where there was much clearer cut evidence that Brabham were using fuel over the allowable RON limits. However, FISA ruled that the fuel samples were legal by citing evidence from the Institut Français du Pétrole that the margin by which Brabham had exceeded the RON limits by were acceptable, and in the end neither Ferrari or Renault - both of whom had raised queries relating to the BT52 - decided to make a formal protest.

Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
by Ferrim 11 Dec 2011, 21:09
Mister Fungus wrote:I thought it was a historical consensus that Schumacher had TC when it was banned. I didn't follow F1 then (was a kiddo), but everything I've read about it seemed to be basically concluding that.


I don't like to read that. It means things are not being told correctly. While that possibility cannot be completely excluded, what mario says is a much more accurate report of what we know. And, you know, traction control makes a characteristic sound that I have never heard in onboard videos of the B194. About the launch control, it's rather interesting that the race everyone talks about is the French GP - when Schumacher had won 6 out of 7 races (and finished second, stuck in 5th gear, in the one he didn't win) and was dominating his nearest rival 66-29. I mean, it might be true that he used launch control, and the perception of how "secure" a title is can be very different within the team than from the outside (point in case: when Ferrari told Barrichello to let Schumacher pass in Austria 2002), but it would be a very stupid decision to use an illegal launch control system in these circumstances.

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by ibsey 12 Dec 2011, 16:03
Having only just spotted this thread (a subject that massively interests me) unfortnately I don't have the time ATM to properly read & consider everything that has been said so far. But basically I used to believe that Schumacher was cheating in 1994, that was until I read Steve Machett book, where he explained that Benetton didn't cheat.

Steve Machett (a mechanic at Benetton from 1990-1997) claimed that the TC system was only on the 1994 car for testing purposed only...& it was too complicated to remove it from the car or indeed use it during a race in 1994 (i.e. you had to press & hold several buttons & paddles to activate it). Also Steve explained that the Benetton fuel rig controversy was mainly down to politics between inter-techinque (the suppliers of the fuel rig system), Benetton & the FIA.
Although I can't remember the exact details at the moment of the politics surrounding the situation (I will endenver to look it up over Xmas & post further details on what was claimed by Steve...since I don't have the book anymore) ...from vague recollection, it was something about how Benetton were told it was ok to remove a filter & then in the aftermath of the Verstappen fuel fire in Hockenhiem 1994...intertechinque or the FIA said it wasn't ok anymore (trying to cover the backs after the Verstappen fire)...& also there was some politics in the tuesday/wednesay before the 1994 Hungarian GP about the situation.

But basically what I'm trying to say here is that IMO Steve Machett claims appears (to me at least) to be more believable than Verstappen's claims so far. Like Ferrim, I also have not heard the characteristic sound of TC in onboard videos of the B194 & simliar I vivlidly remember the B194 wheelspining away from Schumi's stop & go penalty at Sliverstone 1994, therefore further supporting the opinion that the B194 didn't use TC actual races in 1994.

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by Enforcer 02 Jan 2012, 00:22
Well, I got the Senna movie for Christmas which had me thinking about the B194 again. In a little over three monts time, it'll have been 18 years since the car had its first race. Surely not every employee at Benetton in 1994, who would've known whether the car had TC or not, is still in a position where they're still working in motorsport and have to keep it secret. Shouldn't someone have come forward by now and admitted it in as many words if the car was using traction control? Or has someone and I haven't heard about it?

And also, why would they put it on Schumacher's car and not Verstappen's & Letho's? Which is more odd, one driver constantly 1st or 2nd (Schumacher didn't finish a race outside the top 2 in 1994) and the other nowhere, or both drivers doing really well simply suggesting a good car?

On the fuel thing, I have this recollection that some team apart from Benetton claimed intertechnique told them it was okay to remove the filler.
by AdrianSutil 02 Jan 2012, 08:02
Ibsey: "The Mechanic's tale", I think is the book your referring too. I used to own it aswell, had a picture on the front of Verstappen's fireball if memory serves me well. A bloody good read.

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by mario 02 Jan 2012, 10:08
Enforcer wrote:Well, I got the Senna movie for Christmas which had me thinking about the B194 again. In a little over three monts time, it'll have been 18 years since the car had its first race. Surely not every employee at Benetton in 1994, who would've known whether the car had TC or not, is still in a position where they're still working in motorsport and have to keep it secret. Shouldn't someone have come forward by now and admitted it in as many words if the car was using traction control? Or has someone and I haven't heard about it?

And also, why would they put it on Schumacher's car and not Verstappen's & Letho's? Which is more odd, one driver constantly 1st or 2nd (Schumacher didn't finish a race outside the top 2 in 1994) and the other nowhere, or both drivers doing really well simply suggesting a good car?

On the fuel thing, I have this recollection that some team apart from Benetton claimed intertechnique told them it was okay to remove the filler.

I believe that the other team you would be thinking of is Ligier, who provided Benetton with supporting documentation from their conversations with Inertechnique. However, it has to be noted that Ligier were a customer team of Benetton at the time, so there is inevitably a question of bias with the evidence that Ligier chose to provide.

Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"

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